(upbeat music) (projector clicking) - Have you ever wondered where the television signal you're watching is coming from?

♪ I love to go a wanderin' (projector clicking) ♪ along the mountain track - Welcome to True North.

(upbeat music) (mysterious music) - Good evening and welcome to Mainewatch (upbeat music) (projector clicking) Welcome to From the Vault, a celebration of 60 years of Maine Public Television.

Now, if I've learned one thing from your emails, voicemails and what you tell me when you stop me in the street,it's that you love the old Woods and Waters with Bud Leavitt shows.

So let's do another one.

This time we go to 1992 as Bud talks sporting camps, fishing and even mountain lions.

Let's get right to it.

From 1992 this is Woods and Waters.

(bright music) ♪ I love to go a-wandering ♪ Along the mountain track ♪ And as I go, I love to sing ♪ My knapsack on my back ♪ Val-deri, Val-dera ♪ Val-dera-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha ♪ Val-deri, Val-dera ♪ My knapsack on my back - [Announcer] "Woods and Waters," with your host, Bud Leavitt.

- Yoohoo, and I'm glad you're out there, 'cause I'm glad to be here.

Well, we took a little winter vacation and some of you were kind enough to say that we were missed.

In fact, only a few minutes ago, I was at the airport and a man come up and tapped me on the shoulder, and he said, "When are you gonna have "Woods and Waters" again?"

I looked at my watch and I said, "In exactly one hour and 23 minutes, I'm on my way there right now."

He said, "I'm gonna hurry home."

Well, we're gonna have a call-in tonight, one hour in fact, and you'll have an opportunity to really ask some questions about fishing.

Now you can ask questions about fishing in Maine, or you can ask about fishing in the province in New Brunswick.

My program guest tonight, Peter Norris here of Nicatous Lake on my right, and on my left is, Alex Mills who is from Doaktown, New Brunswick, on the banks of the Miramichi River.

These people have been in the outfitting camping business or the professional camping business for a long time, the Norris family for half a century.

The name has been synonymous with sporting camps in Maine.

The Mills, meaning Alex and his wife, Vicky have been right in the forefront of conservation programs, at the respect of the Atlantic salmon .

Up in New Brunswick and wherever there's need for help, they've always been on hand and I'm delighted to have them here tonight for reasons that I know that you are going to be better informed about main fishing when we get through here and you'll have an opportunity to call in and ask your own questions of either one of these men.

And if we can't answer it, we'll simply say that we cannot answer it.

But it's gonna be an interesting year because it's been an unusual spring this far.

Only today, I did some checking to find out where the ices are.

I can't repeat on public television exactly some of the answers, but the ice has not been out.

I was also talking to people today just arriving from Florida, some had planned to go to Chamberlain Lake this weekend, hopeful of fishing.

I think I nicked that this morning while having a cup of coffee, it's been a very late spring.

Perhaps the big news this far has been the opening of the Atlantic salmon fishing in our main rivers and principally and notably the Penobscot River where perhaps 50 or 60 fish, this far have been taken on the rod, most released.

My good friend, the professor from the University of Maine, Claude Westfall, caught a beautiful nine and a half pounder, beautiful, beautiful silvery fish and it's being iced and ultimately will be delivered to President Bush perhaps at Kennebunk a bit later in the year, perhaps Memorial weekend.

But all toll, it's been a very slow season.

The brooks and streams have been quite good for the people who have gone brook fishing.

People fishing the small brooks have reported that, occasionally, they picked up one fish, two fish, and it's worked out all right, but this far, we're at least a month behind scheduled.

And under those conditions where we can talk about what we might expect down the road from either one of these two men.

Peter, good to have you here.

- Thank you Bud, appreciate it.

- How are things in Nicatous?

- Well, I think like you said, we could count the sunny days on one hand and for a camp operator, it's very difficult.

You know, there's just so many times when you need the sun to crawl under camp and put pipes together and drain this, and fix that, and when it's 40 degrees and 30 degrees, it makes it very difficult.

- Have you had to turn people back this far?

- No.

Well, people I think with our particular situation are a little more cautious because we're not in Northern Maine and I think that they can call us.

A lot of places they can't reach, they can reach us, and if there's any question about the ice being out, the ice just went out a little over a week ago, which is probably a week later than normal.

And we haven't had to turn anybody away, but a combination of hard winter on the road into camp is seven miles of dirt road and it's very rough has stopped people.

And I've been in the (indistinct) business for the last couple of weeks, it's unbelievable.

I mean, I've had two guys, just a guy yesterday walked 12 miles.

This time he says that his wife lost the keys to the truck when they were out fishing on Duck Lake, I assume that's true.

But he walked down and had to call on a telephone to have a friend go from Ellsworth all the way back up through and bring the keys, and he took my truck and brought it back this morning, and we've been pulling people out.

I mean, it's just, no sun means mud.

- Does the frost out of the ground, mean- - Well, the frost is out in most places, but where the shelter with the soft, you know, the softwood trees on some of the roads, you can just get into a quagmire without even realizing it.

You know, it can be nice and dry for half a mile, and all of a sudden, boom, you're right down to the axles.

And we've had a lot of it.

- [Bud] Alex, what have conditions been on the Miramichi?

- Very similar to what Peter has said, Bud.

The spring was late, cold, snowed yesterday.

You know, we- - [Bud] (indistinct) yesterday.

Got that in the air last night, and I thought, I said, I hope Alex Mills is not marooned and unable to get down.

- We've had worse this winter, but there was a sprinkling, you know, and it's been like that for the last week.

Prior to that, I mean, we just had a very late spring and it's interesting to hear your problems because our problems with getting camps ready and, you know, ensuring that pipes aren't frozen and getting things operational from the winter is just that much harder because of the late spring.

Usually you're expecting, you know, things will be in a certain state come the 1st of April and they just weren't this year, so that slowed things down.

Fortunately, we didn't have to turn anybody away.

The ice was late leaving the river this year as well, about a week, 10 days late.

Some people had to cancel their first guests during our spring season, but we were fortunate, we got started a little bit later, so we really didn't lose anybody.

Fishing was slow because of the cold water and that kind of thing, but it's picked up.

So, generally, we seem to be getting to where we should be for the season.

- You're a lawyer by profession.

I mean, it's all right to even admit it publicly, but how does a lawyer find time to practice lawyer, a law rather, and get pipes going, water going into the operation with that limited time you have?

- I have no idea, but I don't know, but we get it done.

I've got good people working, and you mentioned wives earlier.

I'm very pleased with the help and the participation and everything for my wife, Vicky, who we've met.

So between us, we're able to do it.

But it does take long, a lot of hours, you know, takes a lot of time.

- Before you were ever in the camp business, did you ever imagine there was this much work attending to it?

- No, no I didn't.

It was all a very romantic idealistic notion.

The day before I actually took possession and found out very quickly to the contrary, that there were a lot of the job required or the business required getting your hands very dirty, being ready to respond to a lot of different situations, both from the point of view of maintenance, and emergencies, and the unexpected with guests and the works.

So, a lot of surprises, certainly enjoyable though.

- [Bud] Really?

- Yeah, very much.

- What moved you to get into the camp business along with your profession?

- [Alex] That's a good question.

I really think I had a romantic notion of what the business was about.

I always maintain referring to New Brunswick that if you scratch a hunter or a fisherman in New Brunswick, you're gonna find somebody who is, or fancies that they're a guide, and if you scratch a guide, you're gonna find somebody who is, or wants to be an outfitter.

And I'm probably no different than a lot of people in New Brunswick who were in that situation.

I was practicing law in my hometown and got frustrated with it, and there was an opportunity and I mortgaged my soul and here I am 15 years later, so.

- Peter, the Norris family, for, well, over half a century from your great dad and your mother and so forth, gimme a rundown where you all are at these days.

- Well, I don't know how long this show is, but if I add everything in, you probably won't have time for it.

- [Bud] No, I mean your brothers and your sisters.

- I will say this much.

Recently, my brother Steve, who was at Kidney Pond Camps with my father for several years, he searched over the state high and low.

And finally, he and his wife drove into a place and said, you know, what's gonna happen, they just happened to see the sign and they said, we're gonna go in this place, and we're gonna fall in love with it, and it's not gonna be for sale.

And that's exactly what happened.

They went into a place called, The Pines, the Norway Pines on Sysladobsis Lake, and ironically, that was the case.

And they just made up their mind that they were gonna have this place one way or another, and it happened that the ingredients were right and they were patient.

It took over a year, and finally on the 30th of April, they bought the place, and I took him his first pair of work boots yesterday.

- [Bud] Did you?

- Yeah, I said, those wingtips won't do out here, there's too much mud.

But history-wise, my father was a guide when I was a child and he worked in the paper company as a machinist and a paper mill.

And when he was 52 years old, back in '68, he just left it all, it was still four or five of us kids at home, and he went and got Kidney Pond Camps.

And then we got Red River Camps, my wife and I in '72, my sister Sherlene in '73 or four, got Weatherby's over in Grand Lake Stream.

My sister, Betsy had a place called, Camps of Arcadia in Eagle Lake.

And then we each left a couple places, things changed, and my wife and I again, now are back at Nicatous Lodge, my sister Betsy, who was at Eagle Lake is now at Winnecook Lake at a place called Ferguson's and Unity, and Sherlene is still at Weatherby's and Steve is now at Sysladobsis.

And my mother is still scratching her head, and she's at Sysladobsis with my brother.

- [Bud] Really?

- At 77 years old.

Sorry, ma.

- You pretty much have the state surrounded.

You're gonna earn in (indistinct) camp.

- [Peter] Well, I find it intriguing that in New Brunswick along with a lot of other different arrangements that they have, that we are always faulted for talking a lot, obviously, and we aren't really getting paid for it.

Like lawyers get paid for it, so maybe I should tell my son he should go to law school and then that log meant the sporting camp business.

But, I'll (indistinct).

There's been a lot of jokes about lawyers and sporting camps and so forth, and I think we'll leave them there.

- Well, I know your wife, Chris, is a lot, she's a California girl, and I know she just got out of a hot tub while she's watching this program, hopefully she's out of it right now.

- [Peter] There goes my ride home.

- But tell me about, Chris, the first time you took her in the woods.

I mean, at the sporting camp.

- Well, I think you asked me this back in '78, when you did a show up at our first camp.

- Yeah.

- And, - Red River.

- I remember it as clear as if it was yesterday.

And I said that the most amazing thing to me is that, she was from Los Angeles and she came into the woods and was totally at ease, totally at home.

Oh, you know, a little nervous sometimes with critters running around, but basically just fell in love with it, whereas for myself when I went to LA, I had a depression right off the bat.

You know, the concrete, and the telephone poles, and you know, walls between houses, you know, I'm just a little Maine boy.

So I think basically, maybe it was what she wanted.

LA was not what I wanted, you know?

So, obviously she adapted very quickly.

And after she learned how to cook a little bit, well, things got crazy?

- Yeah, she can cook a little bit, all right.

Tell me about the day's schedule, say the hunting season.

You got 20, 25 hunters in.

What's her day's schedule of work?

- Well, 'cause it's changed a bit now, I will say because our children have grown up, both are away at school, that used to complicate things quite a bit.

But now we get up around three, 3:30 in the morning and we serve breakfast at five usually 'cause day break is at six.

And in the process of three to 3:30, all the home fries, all the goodies, the donuts, everything has to be done, you know, and she just keeps me hopping from one side of the kitchen to the other and in and out and the coffee.

And I know at our first camp, when we didn't have the right kind of power, we had to make like 120 cups of coffee with those papas you know, and it was crazy.

So, she's very, very busy.

And then she shot out of cooks, you know, everybody gets what they want and it's just a long day.

But she's often said she enjoys that more than in the fishing season, because when the hunters go out, she does get a few hours in midday towards the afternoon to kick back, and get outside, and regroup.

But it's a long day, really.

- [Bud] But here comes 20 or 25 hunters after a day.

Like, your people coming off the river, they're hungry.

So, come suppertime or dinnertime, whatever, and then the next day, she's gotta prepare lunches for 20 to 24, 25 hunters.

- Oh, it's unreal.

You know, we've talked about numbers and the amount of food that people put away, you know, especially that fresh air, you know how it is.

You get out by a campfire, and it's unreal what you can eat.

And obviously, home cooking, which people are not used to sometimes, the homemade biscuits and all the goodies, and the desserts all made right there, and she makes 'em all.

It's tremendous.

But the thing is that it's almost like a man walking to a wood pile just to give men a little bit of side here, and you look at the wood, and after you've beat on it for quite a long time, you know how to line it up and get the grain a little bit better so that she's learned an awful lot of tricks from a lot of camp cooks and other camp owners that shot in her work, a great deal.

It doesn't take it away, but knowing the tricks of the trade is of big, big help in experience, you know.

And she just really plugs, never gets on rebel.

- [Bud] She doesn't?

- No, that's one of the things about a sporting camp owner's wife, right?

- Yeah, she's trying to make time with you right now.

Alex, a lot has been said about the new regulations with respect to friends in Newfoundland.

As I understand it, they've paid off and commercial fishing has been reduced to practically zero.

What is this gonna mean for Atlantic salmon fishing for the province and the State of Maine?

- Well, it's obviously a boom.

The exact numbers, I don't think we'll know until after the season is over, but unquestionably, it's gonna put fish in all the Atlantic salmon rivers on the eastern seaboard, this summer.

One forecast is that for the Miramichi alone, that we may expect to see an increase of approximately 30,000 grills and 12,000 salmon .

- [Bud] Really?

- Miramichi alone.

Now, as you probably know about the forecasting for Atlantic salmon is, - [Bud] Precarious business.

- it's not as precise as it should be.

Although certainly, there are some aspects of it, which they do have nailed down fairly well, but the biologists are of always hedging their bets one way or the other, or couching their statements with one qualifier or another, but certainly, the net effect is going to be positive.

And it'll be interesting to see whether those kinds of numbers materialize this summer.

For sure, over the next four or five years, we're looking at a dramatic increase in returns of fish.

Again, as you may know, there's some other considerations that you have to look at when you are forecasting.

There's some concern about ocean temperatures not being what they should be.

There's still concern about Greenland, a big issue that is being addressed on an ongoing basis, but generally things are optimistic.

I'm quite pleased with this Newfoundland announcement.

- The general regulations, other than Atlantic salmon , has the province made any mark changes in their regulations with respect to, for example, bass fishing has suddenly grown rapidly - [Alex] Yeah.

- all through the province, interestingly.

- [Alex] Yeah.

- More people are doing it, that great flowage of the St. John and so forth.

- [Alex] Yeah, yeah.

While I don't participate in bass fishing myself, my understanding is basically the regulations- - [Bud] You have have never caught bass?

- No, no, I don't take bass fishermen.

I have caught bass, and very proud to admit it.

Not until late in life, a few years ago, but I very much enjoy bass fishing.

In fact, Bellenza, our tourism rep for the province in New Brunswick and I are scheduled to do some bass fishing sometime in the next month, so.

- [Bud] Are you really?

- Yeah, we are, yeah.

- I might tell you that Bill is with Bill Bryan tonight over in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, and they're probably right there checking up on you right now.

What's your outlook for the season?

- Fish-wise or generally?

- [Bud] Business-wise.

- Fish-wise, again, I guess the forecasts are certainly positive.

On the Miramichi, we had approximately 100,000 fish last year.

So again, we were expecting that we'll hit that number and more this year.

Business-wise, it's down.

Up and down the river things are off from probably a high of two years ago.

Last year I was down somewhat and we're on about at the same par as last year, and I expect probably most camps are in somewhat the same situation.

Everybody liked to think that we were perhaps recession proof, but it certainly seems as if that's a factor.

A number of different things at play I think in assessing where our business stands, the attention that Russia is getting I think is a big consideration.

- [Bud] Really?

- Yeah.

- We see people- - [Bud] Have you literally lost some clients that are going to Russia this year salmon fishing?

- No, absolutely.

I wouldn't say a large number, but- - [Bud] No.

- You know, you talk to guests or people who would consider the Miramichi and they say, no, I just booked to fish to Ponoy or some other exotic river.

So yeah, we're very much subject to what's happening in places as far away as Russia.

- You know, Ted Williams and Bobby Knight went over there last year, and that's all I've heard, is Russia.

- [Alex] Oh, is that right?

- I guess it was an unbelievable experience with respect to salmon fishing.

Well, we'd be glad to take some of your questions.

The telephone number's been on the board.

If you have a question that you'd like to ask either one of these men, well, don't hesitate to call in and they'd be delighted to answer your question.

Peter, what do you think of pike and Nicatous?

You never expected that question.

- I'm not surprised at all anymore, you know.

I mean, we went from the Northern Maine, strictly salmon and trout down here to central Maine where bass really is becoming king, if it isn't already, and the appreciation for bass is getting higher.

Personally, I think the white perch, if you're gonna have an eating fish out of fresh water is probably the best one that I can think of.

As far as pike go, we call our trout at Nicatous, we have a Nicatous trout in there.

They have a long snout and they have a lot of teeth in the front of their body, and they're better known as (indistinct), but they're very obliging and very capable of putting up a fight.

And I think that's what's happened with me over the last 20 years, you know, in becoming more realistic, not fatalistic about cold water species, but we all know how difficult it is and how trying it is to try to keep the populations up.

And I'm just hopeful that the fishing game department and the people realize that when people come to our camp, they want to catch a fish, especially a kid.

They don't really care what kind of fish that is.

Now, we're not talking about Atlantic salmon here, we're talking about a family or a little fellow that just wants to catch a fish.

He may not have the opportunity where he is at, so pike, or bass, or whatever it might be, my game is for them to just enjoy themselves.

And I recall last summer when you were up and your granddaughter was there and the thrill I her eye.

You know, as I caught that rod, as it went over the side of the boat, - [Bud] That's right.

- what a story.

I mean, - [Bud] Yeah, that's right.

- it was a four or five pound bass in her eyes, were the size of sauces, you know.

- [Bud] Well, so was mine, it was my rod.

- Yeah, well, we caught it.

- Coyotes.

- [Alex] He said you'd ask about coyotes.

- At least when you ask me this time, Bud I don't have smoke in my eyes.

The last time you asked me that we were sitting by a campfire in Northern Maine, and I said, this is the way a campfire is supposed to be, with smoke in your eyes.

But I truly believe, and I am not a biologist, so I can only go on my experience day by day, I don't see very many of 'em, I know they're there, I know that they do kill some deer.

My major response to the coyotes is what they've done to the deer's reaction.

You know, you jumped a deer 10 years ago and if you were quiet and you tippy-toed up, you might get to see that deer.

He'd be looking back at you.

It seems like now, if a twig snaps, those deer are gone and they just don't stop.

And if you start tracking one, it seems like he goes on and he goes right out of his territory.

You know, they're supposed to have a mile square territory, but he doesn't stop.

- Come in Vango, with your question.

- [Vango] Yeah, so I would like to ask about the fish.

I mean, a lot of fishing going on is starting on and 'cause they've been in the newspapers about the mercury, the level of mercury and the different types of fish.

I'm just wondering, which fish is more likely to have the higher content of mercury?

- That's a tough question.

I haven't heard that addressed on which fish, is said to have the highest content of mercury.

I think you've stuck us.

- [Peter] Obviously, it's a factor, you know?

- Yeah, obviously it's a factor.

Can't answer you.

- [Vango] Like I said, my other question is on the salmon part where they said that they stopped the offshore fishing.

- Yes.

- [Vango] And where he is saying so much salmon is coming up in the stream.

If they're gonna extend the limit on the salmon that you can catch with a pole.

- Okay, I can answer that for you.

There'll be no change in the regulations this year.

Again, when that Newfoundland hatchery or that Newfoundland bunch of fish supposedly come down, the eastern shore of the United States, supposedly coming into the main rivers, I would guess that the salmon commission would look back at the rules next year, before they post new rules.

But the one fish limit still holds.

- [Vango] Okay, thank you.

- All right.

- [Vango] I'm still watching.

- Thank you.

- [Vango] If anybody's got any questions on that, maybe on the following show, they could, you know, come up with some answers.

- Yeah.

All right, that's a good point on that mercury.

- [Vango] Okay, thank you.

- Sorry, can't help you.

- [Vango] All right.

- All right, your question.

- [Mrs. Dyer] Yes.

- Where are you calling from?

- [Mrs. Dyer] I'm calling from Ellsworth.

- Yes ma'am.

- Yes, my name is Mrs. Dyer, and I just wanted to call and let Peter know that I am the gentleman's wife that he helped out this morning and I'm ever so grateful that he let my husband use his truck so that my two-year old son and I wouldn't have to spend the night in the camper alone.

- [Bud] Oh boy.

- [Mrs. Dyer] Because I lost truck keys overboard in Duck Lake.

- I just mailed the bill to you, I think it's (indistinct) to me.

Well, that's good.

I mean, one of the things I've always noted, camp operators outfit as guides in an emergency.

They're always willing.

- [Mrs. Dyer] Well, I just wanna thank him ever so much.

- Thank you, ma'am.

- [Mrs. Dyer] I'll never forget that fishing trip.

Thank you very much, sir.

- You're very welcome.

- All right, bye-bye.

- Come in, where are you calling from?

- [Sanford] This is Sanford, Maine.

- Sanford, all right, your question.

- [Sanford] My question is, is the ice our at Nicatous right now, in that area?

- Well, we have the man can answer that, he lives there.

- Yeah, the ice is out.

It went out about a week ago, a little better.

And we don't have much for experience, there are some fish being caught, West Lake and Duck Lake, not sure on Nicatous because lots of times, the early fishermen are going on the lower end of the lake, the south end opposite of ours.

Our guests will start coming in the next week or two, but the water's low.

We didn't have much snow this winter, especially bare ground in January was, you know, terrible and February just can't make up for that.

And I think we're gonna see, unless we get a lot of rain, which I don't want to forecast after this lousy spring, that we're gonna see some low water levels.

- New Gloucester, come in with your question.

- [Fourth Caller] Hello?

- Yes.

- [Fourth Caller] I'm from New Gloucester and, - Yes, sir.

- [Fourth Caller] I have a question for the gentleman from New Brunswick.

- Yes, sir.

- [Fourth Caller] I fished the northwest branch of the Miramichi last summer and one of the major problems that we had is that the Indians were gillnetting the river.

And I wondered if the province in New Brunswick has any intent to do anything about it or what the situation is with it now.

- I actually should have mentioned that issue when you were asking me earlier about the summer.

That gillnetting on the Northwest Miramichi was a serious problem last year and there have been a number of organizations that have been working very, very hard with government and with the native community to try and get that situation under control.

And at this point in time, I wish that somebody could say to us, or I could say to the gentleman who's calling that the matter is under control for this summer.

There is certainly a lot of pressure being put on the reserves and their leaders, and the chief, and the band council on those two reserves on the northwest are certainly committed to controlling the fishery, to converting that net fishery to something which is more conservation-oriented and of more economic benefit.

So it's in the works at this point in time.

Unfortunately, I cannot say that the problem is going to be resolved for this summer.

You know, interestingly though, I am convinced from the work that we've been doing over the last six or seven months, that the problem will be resolved.

I certainly hope that people don't despair with the northwest, with New Brunswick generally, while this is getting resolved.

I think we've got a lot of hard talking to do between government, ourselves and native leaders.

This is something which your viewers probably wouldn't be aware of, it's all connected to an effort to try and find some constitutional piece in Canada these days, which complicates the fisheries issues.

But in any case, I'm 100% confident that a year, two, three years, that it will be resolved.

The native community, they want a larger share of the salmon resource, I personally feel they're entitled to a larger share.

I don't feel that they're entitled to put gillnets in the river, but I certainly feel that they are entitled to a much larger stake in the Atlantic salmon fishery.

And again, that is a fairly widespread thought or position amongst conservation groups and the leadership in the native community is responsible.

They readily admit that they have people on the reserves who they can't control, and they see that as something that they've gotta come to grips with.

But all of the players are moving in the direction to rationalizing that native fishery, so.

- [Bud] Good.

- Yeah.

- Lets go to, (indistinct) Rustic county in (indistinct).

Come in.

- [Jim] Bud, Jim Carter here.

- Hi Jimmy, how are you?

- [Jim] Fellow on your right, I've spent a lot of time with him.

- You know Pete Norris?

- [Jim] Yeah, but I've found in the headwaters of Rustic this year, I think it's 13 or 14 dead deer.

One of the things of the powers to be an Augusta might allow us, is to take a little poke in 'em on Sundays when we're ice fishing.

We usually try to try hop, but you gotta kinda look over your shoulders.

- You know, Jim, we have laws that you well know.

- [Peter] I'm not sure Jim does now, be careful.

How you doing Jim?

- [Jim] All right.

I really think that possibly in another term of legislature to allow people to hunt on Sunday during January, February and March, we'd get a few more of these.

They are killing a lot of deer.

- You are talking about coyotes alone, just coyotes?

- [Jim] Coyotes alone.

- All right, good to talk to you and stay healthy.

- [Jim] Thank you, sir.

- You bet.

- [Jim] Bye-bye.

- Come in, and where are you calling from?

Hello?

- [Sixth Caller] Hello?

- Yes, ma'am.

- [Sixth Caller] I'm calling from Bangor.

- Yes, ma'am.

- [Sixth Caller] I'm calling because I was gonna make a comment on coyotes.

I feel like coyotes are blamed for a lot more than they really do.

Coyotes are more into small animals like rabbits, and mice, and rats.

Everybody wants to blame it on the coyote.

I agree that they have grown in numbers, but basically they don't like to get larger game.

I have to say that, thank you.

- Thank you, ma'am.

- [Sixth Caller] Mm-hmm.

- That's a difficult question.

- [Peter] You don't want to differ with it, do you Bud?

- I don't disagree with the whole, I'll tell you very honestly, I don't think we can do anything about the coyote situation.

- [Peter] Well, you know, nature is nature.

- Nature is nature, exactly right.

I mean, they're compatible in other places, Michigan, the northern states for the white tail deer.

But I'll take you next question, where are you calling from?

- [Ed] Hi Bud, my name is Ed (indistinct), from Scarborough.

- Hi Ed, how are you?

- [Ed] Good, originally from Mexico, and I knew Mr. Norris back when I was in high school.

- [Peter] That long ago?

- [Ed] Yeah.

I got a question for you.

I fish a lot in the Kennebago River, up in the Rangeley area.

And then the new (indistinct) this year, they come out with this 10-inch trout in Kennebago Lake.

Well, they also changed the limit on Kennebago River to five fish from one fish.

I just wonder if that's gonna continue or if that was a mistake.

- [Bud] That was not a mistake, I can assure you.

That was part of the laws this year for the tightening up, hopeful of preserving some of the wild fish.

- [Ed] No, what it was is that, the limit in Kennebago River has always been one fish and they changed it to five.

- Five, that's correct.

- [Ed] That's gonna stay five.

- Mm-hmm.

This year, at least.

- [Ed] Okay.

- All right.

- [Ed] Thanks a lot, Bud.

- You bet.

Come in with your question, where are you calling from?

- [Eight Caller] Ah, Old Town.

- Old Town.

Best city in the east.

What's your question?

- Well, it's for either Peter or you, Bud.

- All right.

- [Eight Caller] I was wondering what area of the state has some of the better brook trout fishing?

- [Peter] Well, there's a couple hatch trees up near- - [Bud] Enview.

- No, no, this brook trout fishing, but- - [Bud] You bet, yeah.

Even with poor conditions this spring, I can honestly face you and tell you, I've talked to 15 or 20 different people who have said that they've come off the brooks with pretty exceptional cases.

I know of a single catch of a young man from Franklin who took two brookies, 12 and 13 inches out of a stream that could not possibly be wider than eight feet at crest.

So yes, they're getting fish.

- [Peter] The answer though about regions, Bud is that obviously access has changed the, you know, the fishing.

- [Bud] indeed, indeed.

- And if you're gonna look for some good brook trout fishing, you really got to go back.

You're gonna have to get away from the roads as much as possible.

Little trout ponds that used to be good fishing, now being heavily hit, my answer to that question would be that, you better look to the fire reaches and try not to tell anybody about it and that's where you're gonna find more of you're fishing.

The St. John, I know people go up there and fish that early and have good luck on the St. John fishway, but it's got to be remote.

- Come in, where are you calling from?

- [Ninth Caller] Woodinville.

- Woodinville.

Yes, sir.

- [Ninth Caller] Yeah Bud, hi.

- I'm good.

- [Ninth Caller] I was wondering what you thought about this new limit on the trout?

- Well, you know, we could discuss this all night long.

My feeling is this, the only possible way we can continue to have fishing is the general tightening of the laws.

- [Ninth Caller] I can understand that, sir, but what I'm trying to say is, down here in Washington County, if I wanna go and get a trout for the family, see, I don't go for a sport, I go put some food on the table.

And I was wondering if- - Oh that, I know that.

And you are being penalized, and I agree with that, but- - [Ninth Caller] Yeah, but what I'm trying to say is, I think commissioner (indistinct) is trying to make poaches out of us when we have to walk two and a half miles into the woods to our secret fishing hole and only bring out five, six to eight inch trout.

- It's a tough question.

To satisfy, it's like the dark season.

You know, it freezes over north of here very early in the year, it's open the southern part of the state.

Let's say in the days when we didn't have the zone set up to satisfy everyone with the waterfowl hunting season was a tough chore.

Want to ask you a question, Coyotes in New Brunswick, you are not gonna escape this.

Hang on a minute, we'd be right with you.

- Well, they're there.

- [Bud] Increasing numbers?

- In some areas, but interestingly enough, decreasing fairly significantly in other numbers.

Someone had said that the pattern was that, when they moved into an area, there was kind of an explosion and then a drop with a leveling off.

And I think we're seeing that in some parts of the province.

I think it's safe to say that during the late February, March, when the deer yarded up in the snow is deep at home, that they are doing some damage to our deer.

That seems to be a conclusion which our biologists are reluctantly reaching.

- [Bud] Now admitting.

- Yeah, yeah.

- I unfortunately wasn't able to make it, but there was a fairly good symposium at Fredericton last fall on the eastern coyote.

And there was a fair bit of talk and discussion on stomach analysis that had been done during that period, which showed a fair bit of deer in the diet of the coyote now.

You know, whether they are feeding on dead deer or actually in on the kills, another matter, although there's some other independent evidence there.

Aside from that period, I probably agree with what Peter's saying, you know, because of our climate which, and you know, that we're pretty close to the northern extreme of the deer habitat, of course you probably are here too Northern Maine at least, but whether that combination together with our winters and the presence of coyotes, make our deer more vulnerable or more susceptible or not, I'm not sure.

But that's about the only time when there is any threat.

Aside from that, I don't think there's a lot of damage being done.

The province has looked at problem areas and is in the slow methodical way of bureaucrats, (indistinct) are looking at how to address some problem areas for next winter.

So hopefully, there may be some initiatives.

- Kalai from (indistinct), are you still there?

- [Kalai] I'm here.

- All right, your question.

- [Kalai] This is question to (indistinct) Nicatous law.

- Yes, sir.

- [Kalai] Just kind of curious if he's been down back where the old dump used to be, and if he's walked the banks in the last 10 or 15 years, where you used be able to find (indistinct), and now, you know, that's all you saw down there and now all of a sudden, all you find down there is coyote tracks.

- [Peter] Well, you know, I don't know how much the coyote has impacted.

There's so many things that have changed the deer and their survival abilities.

Forest cutting practices come to mind real quickly, and depending on the winters, I'm not one of those people that has jumped on the coyote bandwagon.

I guess because I believe in nature and I believe in cycles, but I think that what happens is that, somehow we get it in our mind that we have to have X number percent of the deer, you know, and it's grown, and grown, and grown.

And if we're supposed to have 95% and then everything else shares 5%, I'm not saying that the coyotes aren't taking some of the young and some of the weak and some of the strong.

We've had carcasses on the ice.

But I guess I'm just a guy that believes in nature and cycles of things.

And it hurts my business if they kill deer, but on the other hand, that's part of nature.

- Mango, your question.

- [Eleventh Caller] Yeah, so of I'm calling about, I'm glad that the gentlemen here are able to have hunting lodges and keep it available for people.

But since the Karen (indistinct) incident with the posted land, you know, a lot of people in the State of Maine, well, we can't afford to go to a hunting camp up to Nicatous Lake and spend a week.

You know, we're- - Well, what's your question?

- [Eleventh Caller] What can we do about getting some land locally?

- You're talking about public access.

- [Eleventh Caller] Yeah, public access for hunting.

Not just, you know, we have public access land, but it's protected for wildlife such as deer, duck, and other things.

But you're not in hiking, but we're not allowed to hunt on it.

You know around the Bangor, Brewer area, there's some nice farmland that is just absolutely beautiful for deer hunting.

And it's prime, it's always been prime, but yet we're cut off from it because of people with a paranoia of rifles and stuff like that.

And other states have preserved land near locally for sporting clubs.

Why can't we get something like that?

- Well, let me answer your question this way.

We have done remarkably well in the last five to six years, maybe seven.

With respect to the bond issue and buying up land, the state has, it's still open.

It's been open to all of the activities you speak about, just so happens that there's not one in the immediate territory that you tell about right now.

- [Eleventh Caller] Right.

- But let me ask you this, do you belong to Penobscot Conservation Club?

- [Eleventh Caller] Do I belong to- - Yes, sir.

- [Eleventh Caller] No, I- - They have purchased a huge track of land in the LaGrange area.

Beautiful deer country.

(indistinct) And you know, they meet eight times a year, take the summer off.

These people are all hunters in the Maine, they're all hunters and they're doing something about it.

But public access is an enormous problem.

And there's no way to answer that question.

- [Eleventh Caller] You know, it's kind of difficult.

- It is, it is.

- [Eleventh Caller] A lot of us feel like we're (indistinct) state is in our own state 'cause a lot of the public land that's been bought up is far north.

You know, the anti-hunters were building in prime, prime deer country, you know, where they habitat is their (indistinct).

- [Bud] I understand.

- [Eleventh Caller] And they say, well, why don't you go north?

There's plenty area up there, go north.

Well, going north is four or five hours.

I have to rent a hunting lodge, I have to take a week off from, you know, we don't get Sundays to hunt, you get Saturdays.

You gotta take the week off, you gotta get a hunting lodge.

- I gotta move on, the questions are piling up.

Thanks (indistinct), and you have a problem, we admit it.

- [Eleventh Caller] Okay, thank you.

- All right, your question Bangor.

- [Twelve Caller] Yes, I have a simple.

- Simple question.

It's not on coyotes, it's not on number trout, what is it?

- [Twelve Caller] Well, I've been reading two books this winter by, William Converse Kendall.

- Yes, sir.

- [Twelve Caller] And I was curious if there were any more blueback trout in Maine.

- Yes sir, I can answer that one.

First, blueback was and taken in modern times after they were declared to extinct in the Rugeley part of the will, and that's probably in the Kendall book.

We're taken at Wadleigh Pond.

We now have at least a dozen ponds where the bluebacks are still there, but not in great numbers, but you can indeed catch a blueback.

- [Twelve Caller] Oh good, I'm glad to hear that.

- [Peter] We used to have 'em at our first place.

- Yes.

- [Peter] Up in the Red River Camp.

- That's right.

Okay, your question, where are you calling from?

- [Thirteenth caller] Yeah.

- Yes, sir.

- [Thirteenth caller] I'm on hold.

Oh, okay.

- All right, you're on hold.

I am half the traffic.

- [Thirteenth caller] Well, I know you fellows gonna answer this, but I don't know.

(indistinct) Penobscot River, the Atlantic salmon are right about now, correct?

Why is it that down at (indistinct) down near Lincolnville?

Why is it they come down there around August or September?

Do you know?

- Oh boy, I mean, I'm sure that Mr. Mills here to my left could tell you that, for example, fish in the Miramichi, why is it they don't move into Cannes until later in the year?

- You know, who knows for sure?

- [Bud] Who knows for sure?

- Generally, I know what people talk about on the Miramichi is that, the later runs of fish stay in the lower ends of the rivers in the Cannes.

It's possible that the fish are genetically adapted to the fact that the high water comes in the fall, and thus, there's a greater chance of getting up the tributaries like that.

I don't know the situation here, but our experience in New Brunswick is that your early runs go to the headwaters of a lot of the rivers, and your later runs will not go up so far or the majority of them will not go up so far.

But it's genetics of some kind.

- [Bud] That's right.

At the risk of taking up a little time, I wanna tell you a quick story.

I have a great friend, good friend, and an old guide on the Keswick River.

His name is Ali Moores.

Each and every year, for years now, Ali Moores and I have had a running conversation because he maintains there's a time of the year when a fish called the bluebacks, meaning Atlantic salmon , come into the Keswick River.

Now, they must come up the big, big rest of Goose River.

And I'm always kidding, Moores, this little stream called the Keswick, these fish come up the river and when the leader of the group for the blue back, say, oh, stop right here, bail left and come up the river, he vows, this happens each and every year.

I've never caught one of his bluebacks, and I've fished with him many hours, but the same question this, Ollie maintains you can't catch bluebacks anyway, except in the Keswick.

So if you're looking on tonight from Cumberland, I still don't believe you.

Where's this?

Aroostook County, what part of Aroostook County?

- [Fourteenth Caller] Presque Isle.

- Presque Isle, nice city.

- [Fourteenth Caller] Yes, it is.

- Your question.

- [Fourteenth Caller] What was that, okay.

I was wondering if you could tell me anything about the bear stamp.

- About the what?

- [Fourteenth Caller] The bear stamp.

- The bear stamp.

- [Fourteenth Caller] Yeah.

- What do you wanna know about it?

- [Fourteenth Caller] I was wondering how long they plan to carry that.

And if they ever plan to do away with it?

- Well, all I can tell you the history of the fishing game department, once they get the foot in the door, the stamp is there, and you and I will have no hair.

I've got very little now, but by the time they take it off, we'd be a couple of old turkeys.

- [Fourteenth Caller] Or I'll be in a wheelchair.

- I hope not.

- [Fourteenth Caller] I was also gonna ask you about, a trout stand.

Were they planned on coming out with one of those- - Well, there's a lot of conversation about that but- - [Fourteenth Caller] Do you think it'd be worth it or?

- Do I think it would be worth it?

No, no.

I mean, look, we're paying already.

- [Fourteenth Caller] That's right.

- Enough for license right now.

- [Fourteenth Caller] Yeah, you're right there.

- I say just use is a little enterprise, a little more innovation, and let's have muskellunge in certain places.

Let's have pike, they have 'em in other states, half our people are going on Lake Ontario.

- [Peter] That's right.

- They're going up to Northern New York by the hundreds.

- [Fourth Caller] But can you blame 'em?

- No, because they got the fish and we don't.

Sorry, I didn't mean to get wounded up, but that's the way I feel about.

- [Fourteenth Caller] No, that's okay.

I don't blame you a bit.

I was wondering also about what would the maximum splake away anyways?

- Splake?

- [Fourteenth Caller] Yeah.

- Oh boy, if you've got splake that's a cross between a tog and a brook.

- [Peter] Could be anything.

- It could be anything.

Even if you get a nine or 10 pounder, but more in the area are three to four pounds, I would say.

- [Fourteenth Caller] I was wondering, they just stocked lake up here.

- On splake?

- [Fourteenth Caller] Yep.

- It's good fish.

- [Fourteenth Caller] They put 10,000.

- That's good fish.

What lake do they put 'em in?

- [Fourteenth Caller] Scopan Lake.

Scopan Lake, good, good.

- [Fourteenth Caller] Yep.

- Thank you very much, we got the next caller.

- Thank you very much, we got the next caller.

Hello.

Come in with your call.

- [Fifteenth Caller] Yes, Bud question is, on the coyotes on Mount Desert Island.

The University of Maine is paying $80 for people catching the coyotes on Mount Desert Island during trapping season, and then letting them go.

I think this is completely wrong with spending the University of Maine's money that way.

- Well, that's the wildlife department.

They want 'em for study purposes, I'm sure.

And why do you think it's completely wrong?

- [Fifteenth Caller] Because they just letting them go.

They put a collar on them.

- That's right.

- [Fifteenth Caller] And then turn around, someone else gets them, and kills them.

We got problem with coyotes on the island here, and I think that they should be killed off some of them not spend the University of Maine's money on them.

- What kind of a war would you start at Mount Desert Island, if you started shooting or killing off coyotes?

- [Fifteenth Caller] I don't say they can shoot 'em up, but those that's trapped, do away with them.

- How many do you think they will trap?

- [Fifteenth Caller] I couldn't tell you how many trapped, but I do know that they're paying $80 each farm.

- One of the reasons for the high price is because they're very difficult to trap.

That's a tough animal to get into trap.

But anyway, you made your point and I'm sure there are listeners out there in a position to do something about it.

We got another question, where are you calling from?

- [Sixteenth Caller] I'm calling from Moncton.

- From Moncton.

- [Sixteenth Caller] But I'm originally from Campbell town, I hear you talking about Campbell town just a minute ago.

- Yes, nice town.

- [Sixteenth Caller] Well, I might add to something to the coyote too.

- Coyote been sufficient season, but go ahead.

- [Sixteenth Caller] Well, it is been bothering me.

I happen to write a book and (indistinct) that area.

- Okay.

- [Sixteenth Caller] And as you know, in the (indistinct), the Brunswick, the deer population is quite low right now.

And they're blaming a lot in coyotes and I notice of coyote problem, but there's something I've seen last fall that I think people should start being smarter about it.

We've heard about 40 deer being shot and most of them were dosed and (indistinct) and just left there.

There was three of them that I know of were shot from off the road, and they were almost fallen one on top of the other.

I mean, and the shells were about maybe 50 yards away.

They didn't even check if they were dead or alive.

Now, if they want to do something about the deer population, they might start helping themselves.

- How much of this is fact or just conversation?

- [Sixteenth Caller] Well, were speak speaking to some of the wardens back there and we were telling them what we'd seen.

- What did the wardens say?

- Warden said, well, in about the last two weeks, it's about 40 that we've came noticed to.

- The wardens have said this to you?

- [Sixteenth Caller] Yes.

So, I mean, that's quite bad.

And I mean, we've been tripping over doughs all over the place.

We'll come up in a week between five or six of us, see maybe five or six doughs just laying there and being shot and you know, not reported.

- That's sick.

- [Sixteenth Caller] I know it is.

- I can't believe that the wardens, the monies up there couldn't app apprehend these rascals.

- [Sixteenth Caller] And you know, most of us have an idea who they are because you have the same bunch hanging around, but it's to be able to put your hands on them and to be able to do that, you'd have to see him doing that.

- Okay, you made your point.

We got a bunch of questioners.

All right Brook, come in with your question.

- [Seventeenth Caller] Yes, this is for you, Bud.

- This is for me.

- [Seventeenth Caller] Yes.

Obviously, since you know, Christine and Peter, both, and Chris is in the area and you obviously had a chance to have her on the show, why wouldn't you have picked Chris to be on the show and not Peter?

- Who's this calling?

I wanna know who's calling.

- [Seventeenth Caller] I got one for you too, Peter.

- I don't wanna upstage Peter by bringing Christine, she's the show by herself.

- [Seventeenth Caller] Oh, beautiful answer.

One quick question for, Peter.

- All right.

- [Seventeenth Caller] On June 7th, would she be available to cook for me at Duck Lake, Peter?

- Well, the way you've built her up now, I don't see how she can say no.

Obviously, I better stay back at the lodge a little more often.

- [Bud] Enough of you, Brook, we're going Sebec Lake.

Come in with your question.

- [Eighteenth Caller] Yes, this is your opinion.

- My opinion.

- [Eighteenth Caller] Last last year, I went to Quebec for the first time and had the time of my life up on Lake (indistinct), - Yes sir, yes sir.

- [Eighteenth Caller] And three, four pound trout- - Now wait a minute, now wait a minute.

How big were they?

- [Eighteenth Caller] Pardon?

- How big were they in (indistinct)?

- [Eighteenth Caller] Three to four pounds.

I have a friend (indistinct), slightly over.

- All right, that's good fish.

- [Eighteenth Caller] And all the walleye you want and good pike fishing.

- That's right, I've fished it.

- [Eighteenth Caller] In your opinion, why can't we have that kind of fish here in the State of Maine?

They coexist up there, why can't they here?

- I just threw that out a while ago.

Let's do something about the fishing, let's bring in pike, let's bring in muskies.

- [Eighteenth Caller] Well, how do we start that?

- Well, we're making a little noise tonight and I've got every biologist in Maine upset right now.

- [Eighteenth Caller] Well, I'm very glad.

I'm very glad, and you've got my vote on it, 'cause I'd love to- - You don't have to answer my telephone, do you?

All right, thank you very much.

- [Eight Caller] Thank you.

- Yes sir, your question.

- [Twentieth caller] Yes Ralph- - Who?

Ralph?

Somebody knows me.

- [Twentieth caller] I'd like to know, I saw your picture in the Bangor Daily News the other day with your brown and white saddle shoes on with Lee Trevino, and I'd like to know what your handicap is.

And number two question, if you could give me your estimation on what's happening, the white perch and Moosehead.

- Well, you saw my picture in there with Trevino.

I was down there for a week with him and remarkable man, great fella, and I'm glad you noticed the shoes.

They're about 10 years old and I still wear white bucks even at my age.

But anyway, about the perch in Moosehead Lake, well, I caught some through the ice this year.

There've been various reports at different places, Duck Cove, the mouth of River Roach, Spencer Bay, all along the area up there.

They're in there, and there's no question about it.

Listen, we got a couple of minutes, we'll take one more question.

All right, come in with your question.

- [Thompson] Hi, this is Zach Thompson from Limestone.

- Yes, all right.

- Say hi to Pete.

- [Peter] Hi, how you doing?

- [Bud] Does anybody not know him out there?

Go ahead.

- [Thompson] Just wanted to know whether you folks admitted, whether there was mountain lions or cougars.

(indistinct) and I had one (indistinct) across the interstate in front of us last fall.

- Who did?

- [Peter] His wife.

- [Thompson] My wife and I.

- Oh, you did?

- [Peter] They're out there, they're out there.

My father was a guide for years and he swears that the tail was long at, and it was not a bobcat, and it was a mountain lion up in the Red River country, and I have to believe him.

- [Bud] Alex, Alex.

- A lot of people have had claims on it.

I don't know about New Brunswick.

- [Alex] I'm a believer.

- You're a believer too.

- [Alex] You're a believer too?

- [Thompson] That's the second one I've seen.

I saw one up in Red River country.

- I don't know about two, you might have seen one, now, wait a minute.

- [Thompson] Two, two, Pete.

- All I can tell you that my friend, returned all the (indistinct) newspapers who's in the mid-eighties in his life, writes seven columns a week.

Myself, we've written reams about sightings of mountain lions.

Nobody has ever taken a picture of one, nobody has wrongfully shot one, and I'm among the doubters.

- [Peter] Oh, that's too bad.

- Well, that's all right, that's all right.

- [Peter] It might be a big foot too, right?

Well, there could be a big, big foot out there.

- Yeah, yeah.

(indistinct) Oh yeah.

- Oh yeah.

- I mean, you know, all this evidence for years, I bet Jean has written 100 columns.

I bet I've written at least 50 about mountain lions.

I've got a file at my house on mountain lions that thick, and from (indistinct), all the way up to Emden, all the way, Well, generally statewide, but nobody has ever taken one with the lens of a camera yet.

Listen, Alex, appreciate you coming down.

- Thank you, Bud, my pleasure.

- I'm sorry we got into conversation here about coyotes, but he started the thing, see.

- But I'd like to mention one thing, and I'll be real quick.

We have 50 sporting camps in our group now, and I know that all of them wanted me to say to you, thank you for years and years of support of the sporting camp industry.

And the one gesture that we have for somebody is not a trophy, it's just a shake of the hand.

And I want people to know that he has been a great supporter of our industry for years and we all appreciate it.

- Alex, I want to shake your hand.

You run good camps- - We can certainly echo that in New Brunswick, Bud.

Thank you.

- Well, listen, it's been a joy having you fellas here tonight and we have kind of off the path, we were gonna talk fishing, province New Brunswick, and in the State of Maine changing regulations and everything attending to it.

But it's been kind of fun, I thoroughly enjoyed you two gentlemen here, and hopefully we can do it again.

Maybe we can get Vicky down here sometime, and maybe Chris, and I'd love to have them do a (indistinct) shot of both of you.

Thank you very much, and good night everyone.

♪ Along the mountain track ♪ And as I go, I love to sing ♪ My knapsack on my back ♪ Val-deri, Val-dera ♪ Val-dera-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha ♪ Val-deri, Val-dera ♪ My knapsack on my back