>> Hi, I'm Lewis Howes, New York Times best-selling author and entrepreneur.

And welcome to "The School of Greatness," where we interview the most influential minds in the world to inspire you to live your best life today.

And in this episode, former first Lady Michelle Obama and her brother Craig Robinson share intimate stories of family bonds, revealing how testing Barack's basketball skills became a crucial character assessment, and why their tiny Chicago apartment upbringing prepared them for White House challenges.

This sibling powerhouse delivers practical wisdom on building confidence, raising grounded children amid privilege, and defining true greatness beyond achievement.

I'm so glad you're here today.

and let the class begin.

♪♪ ♪♪ What is one lesson each one of you has taught each other as adults that you didn't learn in school?

Craig, I'll start with you.

The biggest lesson that Michelle has taught you as an adult that you didn't learn in school.

>> Recently, in the -- not in the recent past here, you said to me to make sure because I-I have four children, two adult kids, but I have a 15- and a 13-year-old.

And I am, as she will tell you, I'm the charter member of the ODC, which is the Old Dads Club.

>> [ Laughs ] Okay.

>> And being a charter member, you're continuously parenting.

>> Mm.

>> And she said to me, "Make sure that you're taking your wife out on dates."

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And, you know, my wife is a coach's wife, so she's used to handling 20 student athletes at a time, you know, or 20 people in our house at a time and not saying a word about what her needs are.

>> Putting herself last.

>> Putting herself last, like a lot of women do, like most women do.

I can even say that.

And it was such nice advice to hear from her, because it enabled me to do it before my wife had to ask me to do it.

And it was -- It's really -- And we -- My wife -- >> If I talked to Kelly now, she'd say you're doing it?

>> You can check in.

>> Yeah, yeah.

>> No, this is really good because -- >> Really check.

And we don't do anything but sit and talk about the kids, you know, when we go on these dates.

But it's just -- it's fun.

They're old enough we can leave them at home on their own.

And so she gave me that advice probably about nine months ago.

Maybe it was a year and a half ago.

>> And how has the relationship grown or thrive from that?

>> It feels like it's the same, but we're having fun when we go out.

You know, we're having fun.

And it also allows us to let the kids sort of have the place to themselves and not tear it up and give them some -- give them some rope.

And so it's a growth -- it's a growth region for all of us.

>> Mm.

>> So -- >> That's a beautiful lesson.

>> Yeah.

It's a good lesson I've learned.

>> So what's -- Michelle, what's the biggest lesson your brother's taught you that you didn't learn in school?

>> Craig is -- There's such a -- a youthful, joyful innocence in him that you -- that you've never lost.

And that creates a lightness, you know, that I think other people feel.

I mean, I joke that everyone loves Craig, you know, and I'm -- I'm among them.

Right?

And if I -- if he were a different kind of brother, I'd probably hate him because everybody loved him so much.

I teased them.

My mother loved him more than she loved me.

It's like all I, you know, I'm in the White House.

She's living in the White House.

You know, "When's Craig coming?"

>> Really?

>> He showed up.

We're, you know, we're at his house in Milwaukee, in "Mekwan", Milwaukee -- >> Mequon.

>> Mequon, somewhere outside of -- >> It's cold there.

It's hard to speak the words, you know?

>> Exactly.

>> It's freezing.

>> I know you know.

>> Yeah, yeah.

>> And she's raving about the wine he has in Wisconsin.

I was like, "Mom, you live in the White House.

What more do I have to do?"

I'm first lady of the United States, right?

But any little sister could be resentful.

But retaining that joy, retaining that kindness.

And he's different as a coach on the bench.

Sometimes he scares me.

And I'm like, "Who is this dude yelling at these little boys?"

But I'm trying to hold on and embrace more of that because in my line of work, you know, there's a lot of cynicism.

There's a -- There's, you know, there are a lot of problems.

There's a lot of in-your-face reasons to... be less than optimistic.

>> Yeah.

>> And when I'm around you, Craig, everything is just, like, wonderful and new.

No matter how many times he's seen it, he enters a space with this level of joy and awestruck-ness that, you know, it's important to keep.

>> Did you ever lose that when you were in the White House?

Like being in awe of how far you had come and how far you and Barack had, you know, created your lives together?

Or did it -- did you ever just feel like, "Oh, this is the norm now," and...?

>> I think we practice just staying level, not getting too high, not getting too low.

I mean, and I think that became a habit.

My husband's nature is that he is very cool, calm, collected.

He's an athlete, but he's the slowest walking person I've -- I'm like, "How --" >> No urgency.

>> "How do you walk that slow?"

>> That island time.

>> He's on island time -- >> Island time.

>> ...he goes.

>> And he's like, "Why are you walking so fast?"

It's like, if I walked any slower, I'd be walking backwards.

I don't even know how you do it.

>> [ Laughs ] >> [ Laughs ] So he has a natural calm.

My temperament, I'm a little more fiery.

And if I were to let my emotions guide me, if I got too pumped about the good times and too down about the bad times, I'd be a mess.

So I think there has been a little of, "Yeah, that's fine.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, we just did that.

Okay.

Great Wall of China?

Alright.

What's next?

Meeting with the Pope -- so good to see you.

Let's move on."

>> Really?

>> A private meeting with Nelson Mandela, that was really cool.

But, okay, now we have to do... You know, it's just because the lows were like we're mourning kids that were shot.

You know, we're at a site where people have lost their homes in a horrible tornado.

We are grieving with military families.

I'm visiting Walter Reed.

And, you know, in the midst of the war and seeing rooms and rooms full of young men with their legs cut off and young wives with babies wondering, you know, how are they going to live going forward?

I mean, you talk about the peaks and the valleys.

And I think getting through that, you just -- I've just learned to remain a little nonplussed either way just to get through it.

And then in comes Mister "Whoa!

Wow.

Look at this," and it's like, that's so sweet.

You know, I mean, sometimes you need to just be like, this is the coolest thing ever.

So, yeah, I do think that I practiced a little more... >> That's so interesting.

>> ...staying in the pocket.

>> Because you had to really -- It sounds like you had to keep your nervous system steady at all times.

Otherwise, the highs and the lows could have made you exhausted emotionally, it sounds like.

As a basketball coach, you have to motivate and keep people steady as well when there's momentum and it's going and when you're down by 20.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> So did you -- Now -- But as siblings, this is actually the first brother-sister combo that I've had on the show in 12 years.

I've had siblings, but not brother-sister.

So this is interesting.

Were you able to just be her big brother in the height of all of this while she was in the White House, or were you trying to coach her like you would your athletes?

>> Oh, I -- The former, because I could not coach her like she's an athlete.

>> Wow.

>> Because I'm not saying you're not coachable, but -- >> But... >> Just not in tennis right now, you know?

>> No, I was more there for support.

>> Okay.

>> Right, I was there, I was I was coaching her up on the side to get her... her spirit up.

Rather than technical things, here's what you should do.

I'd like to think that when we came to town, my family, my wife, Kelly, and the kids, we came.

It was like, alright, it's time for us to have some fun like the old days.

>> Bring the lightness, the familiarity.

>> Yes, yes.

Bring the -- >> The normal.

>> The normal.

The normalcy that we used to have when we were in Chicago, when our mom picked up all four of our kids and took them to one of our houses, and we had a barbecue on, you know, Friday night.

So that was -- I felt that was my role when they were in the White House.

And then, you know, I would say being able to sit with Barack and watch a basketball game.

Although he looks -- He's such a good multi-tasker.

He'd have so much stuff going on and then have the game on and he would know exactly what's going on in the game while he's doing all this other stuff.

But it was -- it just was nice to sort of have normal family time, albeit in the White House.

>> Yeah.

Yeah.

>> Try to make it familiar in an unfamiliar role.

>> Ignore all of this.

>> Yeah, exactly.

>> Yeah.

Speaking of, I also heard that you asked your brother to play basketball with Barack.

Is that right?

To, like, feel out if he's a good guy or if he's -- >> Yeah.

Well, Lewis, you can appreciate this because being an athlete, and I know you're a football player, but -- >> Yeah, I played D3 basketball, but not -- >> This one -- I was just going to say most football players fashion themselves as -- >> Of course.

I was a basketball player first.

>> And then -- >> That's what they all say.

>> And then I stopped growing, and I was like, I'm not going to make it in the NBA, so let me go try football.

>> So you switched to football.

>> I did.

>> So, my dad used to -- we -- My dad and I talked basketball.

Now, my dad wasn't a basketball player, but we talked sort of basketball and how the game brings out your real character.

>> Mm, it does.

>> Especially pickup basketball because you have to call your own calls.

>> Oh, I know that.

>> And so my sister heard us popping off about that.

And she said, when they first met, "Hey, will you take Barack out.

Because I really like this guy.

I want to see if he's really real, if you like him, based on what you and dad said on the court."

>> And how long had you known him before that?

>> It was the first year.

It was the First year that we were dating.

Because it was like, I like him.

He's cute, He's funny, he's smart.

We're starting to get close, but who is he?

>> What's his character?

>> What's his character?

>> What's inside of him?

>> And, you know, and when you're with the family, you know, everybody's going to perform, you know, at Thanksgiving dinner, or if they were just to go out for drinks.

I mean, Barack was smart enough to know how to -- He presents well, right?

But -- And it wasn't just overhearing them talk about it.

I mean, being the sister in a basketball culture, right?

I was dragged along for all the sports.

I spent my life in gyms.

I was athletic.

>> She's still salty about -- >> But, you know -- But it was just the norm.

We were going to cheer him on in a sport because at the time, Title IX hadn't kicked in.

And even though I was kind of a tomboy, very athletic, there wasn't a place for me to put that energy, nor was it cool for girls to be athletes, especially if you were tall, because everybody assumed that.

So I was the sister on the sidelines, got to meet all the cute basketball guys, so I wasn't complaining.

>> Right, right.

>> But I know sports and I understood the game and I dated people that were on -- that were on Craig's team.

And I'd hear about them, like, how were they in practice?

How were they -- Were they coachable?

Were they -- So I believe that myself, that, you know, you learn a lot about a man in particular and how he engages in the game, right?

>> 100%.

>> So I was like, take him out.

>> Really?

So in the first year -- >> Barack said he was a basketball player.

>> Like, oh, let's see if he's a real player.

>> Yeah.

And if you say you're a player -- And he didn't talk himself up, but he is a basketball fanatic and I-I kind of wanted to know, was he an athlete, you know?

>> Yeah.

Is he really an athlete 'cause if he's not, I don't know if I'm gonna -- >> I wouldn't mind -- I wouldn't have minded if he wasn't, but I would have been suspicious if he had said he was and then he couldn't even dribble the ball.

>> If he talked a big game and he couldn't back it up.

>> Exactly.

>> You know.

So wait.

>> He would dribble the ball.

>> So can you walk through the scenario of how this -- Did you call him and say, "Hey, let's go hoop it up, let's play a pick up game"?

Or was it one on one?

What's the scenario?

>> Let me start with how she asked me.

She said, "Hey, I want you to take him out and I want to know what he's really like."

And the first thing I said, "I'm not doing your dirty work."

No, because I was worried that if he turned out to not be a good basketball player, I'm the one who has to say, "Oh, no, this guy's a complete jerk."

>> But you're also -- You were Ivy League, like, MVP.

You were a professional.

You got drafted in the NBA.

>> Let me get to that.

>> You were a pro.

>> So, listen, that -- So it would be the guys I worked out with, he -- it wouldn't be fair for him.

So I said that to her.

She was like, "Oh, come on please.

You gotta do it."

So I called up some guys that I knew who were like me, but were -- weren't going to be trying to kill him, right?

So, you know, if you were in Chicago at the time, I would have called you up.

I called Arnie Duncan up.

I called my friend John Rogers.

>> Athletes, but not, like, NBA guys.

>> But not the Summer league guys that I'm working out with.

And so I -- And I called him up and said, "Hey, we're playing up at, you know..." I forgot where we were.

University of Chicago.

>> Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> It's part of the story.

>> Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> University of Chicago.

>> Okay.

>> "Let's go play."

He came, and it was -- we started playing and I'm just, you know, we're playing a nice friendly game and it's fine.

>> Is it five on five?

Is it two on two?

>> It's three on three and four on four.

>> Half court.

Okay.

>> You know, you can hide -- >> Oh, yeah.

>> ...in a full court game if you're not good.

>> Oh, yeah.

You can cherry pick, you can -- >> Yeah.

Half court game -- Half court game you have to be engaged or you'll get -- you'll get called out.

But he was terrific.

Right?

He was a decent player.

And I always say he's a real lefty.

So he dribbles to his left and shoots with his left hand.

You know how some lefties are really right-handed, but they shoot with their left hand?

>> Yeah, yeah.

Like, for your audience.

>> Yeah.

My best friend Matt is that way.

Yeah, yeah.

>> See?

Lewis knows.

See?

>> I do.

>> Lewis knows.

>> The athletes know.

>> The athletes know.

But here's what I liked.

You know how when you foul a guy, you know you fouled a guy, and in a gentleman's game, you just say, "Hey, your ball, I fouled you."

You're not trying -- >> You call it.

>> Yeah, you call it as the defender.

>> Yes.

>> And he did that.

And I was like, that's a really good sign early on.

And then the other thing is he didn't shoot too much, but he didn't pass too much.

Like, he took the open shots and he passed when he wasn't open.

But the thing that really put him over the top was he didn't just pass me the ball knowing I was her brother.

>> Yeah.

Let's make you look good.

Yeah.

>> Listen, you know how that is.

Dudes would be like, "Hey, here, Craig, you take the shot."

And I'm like, "Oh, come on, man."

So I was able to go back and report that the Robinson basketball -- >> We got married, so -- >> It worked out.

Yeah, yeah.

Now, here's the thing.

If he wasn't -- >> I'm just saying, if it hadn't worked out, I might not have kept dating.

>> Really?

>> You know, I don't know.

>> If your brother would have said something about, you know, his character was really nasty.

Like, he was really mean and getting in fights.

>> They wouldn't have gotten married.

>> Really?

>> I would have addressed it.

I would have had the conversation.

It's like, "So, I hear you were kind of a jerk on the court.

What's that about?"

Right?

"Why would you do that?"

Or, you know, I mean, I would have had a discussion, and then I probably would have been looking for other signs.

He didn't show -- He, you know, he -- his -- The outcome of that pickup game was consistent with what I was seeing.

>> That's good.

His behavior matched his words.

>> Exactly, exactly.

So it's -- And it's continued to be that way.

>> That's beautiful.

>> I mean, Barack is who he appears to be, you know?

You know, and he shows up well.

He's somebody you want on your team.

>> That's beautiful.

>> And that was important to know in a -- as a woman who grew up in sports culture.

Right?

That's important.

You know, that's a value that I hold dear.

That's something I respect, not just in my male friendships, but in all my friendships.

Are you who you say you are?

Do you show up well?

Do you -- Are you a team player?

>> Mm.

>> So yeah.

>> That's beautiful.

That's beautiful.

Great story.

I love that.

But growing up, you know, you guys -- I think I heard you say in your podcast, which is an amazing show, I want people to go download it and watch it, but you're talking about you grew up in a one bedroom apartment together, essentially with, like, a living room at your guys' bedroom up until you went to high school.

>> Yeah.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> So you shared a room for, like, 10, 12 years together?

>> Oh, yeah.

We shared a room our whole time growing up.

>> Wow.

>> Until I went to high school.

>> Yeah.

>> And then we -- >> Turned the back porch into a bedroom.

Yeah.

>> You know, finished it off and enclose it and insulated it.

And that became... >> Back porch off the kitchen.

>> ...my bedroom.

But I would say our entire apartment was as big as this... >> Come on.

>> ...studio area right here.

And that was the kitchen.

And in the kitchen had a table, so it wasn't a dining room.

>> Yeah.

>> You come through the hallway, the bathroom would have been right there, and the stairs down would have been across.

This, which was considered the living room, was really the dining room.

But we used it as a living room, one bedroom in there, and then the living room was there.

>> Wow.

>> That we used for our bedroom.

>> That's incredible.

>> And we started out with our beds head to head like this when we were really little.

And then when we got older, my grandfather, my paternal grandfather, South Side, who -- We called him that because he used to live on the West Side.

We had two grandfathers.

And we would say, "Which house are we going to -- West Side Grandpa or South Side Grandpa?"

And he'd say, "West Side."

And then he moved to the South Side, so we named him South Side.

He built a paneled "T" down the middle of that room.

So that turned into one bedroom for me, one bedroom for me, and then a common room.

So yeah, we shared space.

>> But our father was a -- He was a city worker.

He's a blue-collar city worker, worked for the water filtration plant.

And we lived off of his salary until I went to high school, because my parents thought it was important for my mom to stay home.

So in order to make that work -- And my father was very financially responsible, even though he didn't earn a lot of money, and they made sacrifices.

So their view was it doesn't matter the size of the house.

You know, it's more important for you to have your mother there who is -- you know, so we could come home for lunch.

And she was a room parent, and she knew our friends.

But we didn't have a lot of money.

We didn't grow up with stuff.

And so, you know, I talk about this with parents.

When, you know, you hear young people waiting, it's like, "Well, I want to make sure I have a 6,000-square-foot house, and then we have savings for college already lined up before I can even think about getting married."

You know, that wasn't what made us who we were, you know?

And living in that little, bitty space with four people and one bathroom -- that built character for us, and it created a level of closeness and intimacy.

And it's a reminder to us today that no matter how successful that we get, home is about who's there, not where we are.

Which was something I had to overcome with the idea of moving into the White House, which was amongst my biggest fears when Barack said he was gonna run.

I was like, "If you win, how can we raise a family in that environment?

You know, that's not normal to us.

>> No.

>> That weightiness was not, to me, something that, you know, could sustain a healthy family, and I worried about it, the weight -- >> The weight of it all.

>> The weight of it all.

I think I can now sit in my wisdom at 61.

And I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that I am -- I'm of course still a wife, but I'm not the first lady of the nation.

I'm not the primary parent of Malia and Sasha.

They are adults out there on their own.

This is the first time in my life when every decision, good or bad, is mine to own.

>> Interesting.

>> And I feel good about owning it.

I'm still working on it, though, 'cause there's still guilt.

There's still a sense of obligation.

There's still a sense -- There's still always the sense of am I good enough?

>> Really?

Even now?

>> ...confidence.

I think it's there in so many of us.

>> Yeah.

>> Like, that's what I've come to -- >> But you think, "Am I good enough?"

You've created and accomplished so much, not only professionally, but personally.

So at 61, you're still feeling that?

>> But is it enough?

And that's the work that I'm doing.

Like, if it's not enough now, I'm telling myself and my therapist, then it won't be enough.

So now I have to determine for myself, because this is all an internal conversation, that I'm good, right?

I just really now have the time to do that work.

>> Interesting.

>> Right?

'Cause when you're climbing, slaying the dragons, you're just feeling the feelings.

You don't have time to assess it, right?

Raising kids, getting through hard times, writing books, doing book tours, you know, working on the library with my husband, blah, blah, blah, blah.

The decade that I was talking about that just went by just like a flash -- when was there time to reflect and work on that stuff?

>> Do the healing work.

>> To do the healing work?

Because after all that work, there still is healing from it.

You know, that was a mighty experience that we had, right?

>> Yeah.

It's a lot to unpack.

>> And so in these last years, I've been unpacking it.

>> Wow.

>> And I'm becoming better with my choices, feeling the most confident in myself and the most settled in that question of am I good enough?

And I'm finally starting to answer it, "Yeah, I think I'm there."

I think I'm there.

>> Oh, that's beautiful.

I feel like this is -- we're just getting started.

But unfortunately, I'm gonna have to wrap this up.

So, I want to ask you guys both a final question.

And that is, what is your definition of greatness?

And I'll start with you, Craig, your definition of greatness.

>> I think greatness is the ability... to both have an impact on your own life And on other people's lives.

I think if you can find a way to develop yourself... and coach yourself up, you can inspire and develop and coach up others.

And that's kind of what sort of my life's work has been, even before I was coaching, when as a player, as an executive, as a corporate worker, I always felt like we didn't inspire each other enough.

Everybody was sort of an independent contractor.

And if we could all be team players, we'd be in a better position.

>> That's cool.

That's cool.

I love that.

>> I think mine is similar, because we were raised in similar circumstances.

>> Yeah.

>> Greatness is giving more than you get.

>> Mm.

>> You know?

Because what's it all for?

You know, greatness -- I think greatness, greater good.

You know, we should be all -- We all should be working for our greatness to affect the greater good.

>> Mm.

>> And, then, we all experience that greatness.

'Cause greatness as an individual feat -- I mean, yeah, I guess.

Right?

I mean, you can sit in your own greatness and have all the stuff and be really alone.

But the bigger greatness is putting that energy out.

Yeah.

>> We hope you enjoyed this episode and found it valuable.

Stay tuned for more from the "School of Greatness," coming soon on public television.

Again, I'm Lewis Howes.

And if no one has told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

Now it's time to go out there and do something great.

If you'd like to continue on the journey of greatness with me, please check out my website, lewishowes.com, where you'll find over 1,000 episodes of the "School of Greatness" show, as well as tools and resources to support you in living your best life.

>> The online course "Find Your Greatness" is available for $19.

Drawn from the lessons Lewis Howes shares in the "School of Greatness," this interactive course will guide you through a step-by-step process to discover your strengths, connect to your passion and purpose, and help create your own blueprint for greatness.

To order, go to lewishowes.com/tv.

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