Welcome to Politically Speaking.

I'm Elisabeth Bennion, chancellor's professor of political science and director of Community Engagement and the American Democracy Project at Indiana University, South Bend.

As Indiana gears up for the 2024 gubernatorial election, Jennifer McCormick has set herself up as a leading Democratic candidate.

McCormick was previously an educator and served as Indiana's last elected superintendent of public instruction before the role was abolished in 2021 and replaced by the Secretary of Education, who is appointed by the governor.

McCormick, who served the state as a Republican before switching to the Democratic Party in 2021, now seeks to become Indiana's next governor.

Welcome and thank you for being here.

Thank you for having me.

I appreciate it.

I want to ask you about your decision to switch parties.

You did run and win as a Republican in 2016 before changing to the Democratic Party in 2021.

What is it that motivated that change and how does that affect your attitude toward governing?

You know, it's so fascinating because I'm not alone.

There are a lot of Republicans out there that are grappling with the party as a whole.

And so for me, it was about values.

It was about making sure that I was affiliated with a party that provided Hoosiers with a voice and opportunities and empowered people instead of worrying about using power over people.

And so I learned a lot in the four years I served at the state House, but also as an educator.

I taught kids for years that character mattered.

And so, you know, I had to practice what I preached and make sure that I was staying true to my values and who I am.

And so that led to my party change.

But again, I'm not alone.

There are a lot of Hoosiers out there that are really struggling with the Republican Party and the extreme policies that they're trying to push.

Okay.

So you talk about values and what matters.

And also this break between you and your former party.

What is it, would you say, that differentiates you then from the many Republicans currently seeking to become the next governor?

Yeah, there are a lot of Republicans on the ticket right now and that is quite interesting to watch their race.

Thankfully, right now.

I should be the Democratic candidate on the ticket and be the sole person, so my primary will look a little bit easier than theirs.

But the clear difference is I'm protecting rights and freedoms.

I'm trying to restore rights and freedoms, and they are continually trying to strip them away.

It's also very clear that they're focused on national issues and really trying to run to the Trump endorsement.

And for me, you know, I'm focused on the everyday issues that Hoosiers are talking about as far as wages and education and health care.

I rarely am hearing anybody talk about their concerns regarding China, although obviously we'll pay attention to national issues and work with who we need to work with at that national level.

But right now, that is not what I'm hearing across the state.

But there's a huge difference in their messaging, their purpose versus ours.

So you mentioned that idea of rights and freedoms.

Certainly a lot of Republicans we talked to here say, look, we're protecting gun owners rights.

We are protecting parents freedoms, not to be taught things or their children exposed to things we don't think they should be exposed to in this school room or in the school libraries.

So we are protecting rights and freedoms.

So I wonder how you respond to that.

Yeah, we hear a lot about people talking about rights and freedoms right now, and we need to talk about everybody's rights and freedoms, just not a small minority of people.

You know, for us to really look at protecting rights and freedoms means we have to protect the Indiana Constitution and the federal constitution that spells them out.

And right now, at the sake of for some to say they are protecting their own rights and freedoms, it's putting others in jeopardy.

So making sure we're having an honest conversation about that.

I know in our traditional public schools, I was a special education teacher and I was a fierce advocate to protect our rights and our freedom of our students.

And, you know, a lot of the options right now in education take those away.

And that's just one difference where, you know, defining in rights and freedoms.

But it's not just about one individual.

It's about a collective society.

So as you're talking about that difference between an individual and a collective society are you saying that a few parents shouldn't trump the rights of other parents in terms of what their children look at, or what do you have in mind there?

Yeah, I think all parents have the rights and freedoms to make decisions about their children.

And if they don't like the books that are being read or the books that are in libraries, or they are convinced ill things about their teachers, there are proper ways to handle that.

It's already in place.

Having been an educator, I know what those procedures and processes are and then they ultimately right now still have the decision on what to do with that.

So, you know, there are a lot of protections already in place that people are are messaging that aren't there.

And we for years have made sure that we are very cognizant of parents and students rights and their freedoms.

But we don't want to strip out certain people's at the sake of others.

And so it's really about making sure that we're having an honest conversation and not just serving to a very few minority.

We're also talked about this issue of gun owner rights.

Gun violence is a serious problem in our country and in all of the states, including Indiana.

What is your proposal to reduce incidents of accidental death, suicides, homicides by guns, while also protecting Second Amendment rights?

Yeah, so I'm a gun owner.

There are a lot of people in Indiana that are gun owners.

You know, I hold a life permit license, you know, not that that's necessary anymore, but, you know, I am the fourth generation for our family.

So I understand the Second Amendment.

I will work hard to protect the Second Amendment.

But gun violence is a concern in Indiana.

It's a concern across the nation.

And there are very some very common sense gun safety measures that would really make a difference.

Safe storage.

There are a lot of gun owners who agree with safe storage.

You know, looking at that age limit for certain weapons is also very popular.

Again, even with gun owners.

But there are.

The list goes on as far as repealing permit list carry, which our law enforcement supports.

There are a lot of common sense gun safety measures that we can take as a state that will not strip away the rights to own own guns.

When you look at things like constitutional carrier permit lists carry, as you've mentioned, law enforcement generally oppose that change as it sounded to the majority of users.

We're not necessarily supportive of the complete repeal of the permit, but the legislature has spoken pretty clearly as a governor.

How would you work with the legislature to get any of these policies enacted?

Yeah, we're seeing a lot of just extremes.

So when you have a one party rule, for as long as we have had that in Indiana, there's very little reason to compromise or very little appetite to compromise.

And I think that's dangerous regardless of the party that would be in charge.

I think balance is good and necessary.

I think compromise is healthy for state policies that way we stay away from extremism on either side.

But, you know, for me, it's about the governor's platform having the state agencies, having the boards and the commissions, Supreme Court appointments.

It's about making sure that, you know, I saw who was brought to the table in decision making when I was at the statehouse.

That table is not large and it's the people look very similar.

So making sure we are bringing the voices to the table that are the boots on the ground so we can make some really good decisions and then also use that as our platform in order to move policies forward.

It also really, you know, getting the governor's office would empower, you know, across the board, down ballot.

And I think that is incredibly important to, again, to address some of the street extremism we're seeing when it's a one party rule.

Now, when we think about issues that are important in the state and then we look at the state budget, the issue of education is always one that seems to be important to everybody, both inside and outside of the state legislature.

What are your thoughts about the current state of Indiana in education, in Indiana, and what kinds of changes would you like to see?

Yeah, so education is the foundation of a lot of things, right?

So education is the foundation of a healthy economy, of a healthy society, of, you know, just an educated, high quality of life.

And so it's incredibly important.

We're over half of the state budget as well.

So, you know, when I was at the state House and I was very cognizant of that, I knew the responsibilities that were associated with education and the impact that had for our students, our families, our communities and our entire state.

And so for me, it's about making sure that we are supporting policies that have equitable funding for our students, that are serving our most at risk, that are also taking care of our teachers.

As we know they are the front line to a quality education.

There are just a lot of things that we could do that are not being done.

One is that salary right now, you know, making sure that we have that where it's competitive with non educator salaries that hold the degree levels they have, that would be a good positive step.

But for education to be successful, we're going to have to put a pause on the privatization efforts that are happening, which will be a commitment from the governor.

Now, if we look at Indiana, I believe the state ranks 43rd out of 51, if we include D.C. plus all of the other states.

In terms of folks who actually attain a B.A.

degree, what would you suggest we do to increase the number of people who are college educated and ready for some of those higher wage jobs?

You know, in Indiana, having been in the trenches as a teacher, a principal and a local superintendent, boy, we had the swings of policy.

And when you have that, the inefficiencies come out and then down the road you're staring at the results.

And that's what we're looking at.

We're looking at the results of 20 years of poor policy that educators in the K-12 system and higher ed had concerns about, and not just higher ed, but in the skilled trades.

You know, we need to make sure that the practitioners across the board are brought to the table in order to find solutions.

There are a lot of states doing good work, and what Indiana tends to do is try to piecemeal things and do it on the cheap and it doesn't work.

So we are absolutely going the wrong way with educational attainment as that is going to be critical in moving Indiana forward.

So you would like to bring more of the educators to the table in terms of making the policy as well as employers.

Is that is that the thought there?

Absolutely.

It's got to be a partnership.

It's got to be K-12.

It's got to be our employers.

It's got to be our universities and colleges.

It's got to be our labor unions.

It's got to be our skilled trades.

I mean, it's got to be a lot of people at that table in order to find solutions.

Again, I saw who was at that table, and this is no surprise that we're here where we are at, but we also don't have to reinvent the wheel.

There are some amazing programs happening across the nation, but if we're going to implement them, we have to implement them holistically and put the resources and the time into it that it's going to take.

Kids deserve that.

The other part of this is they've been left out of the equation.

They have interests, they have passions.

They have some say or should have some say into the net, not just their next four years post-high school, but the next four decades past high school.

And so ignoring them in this has really resulted in where we are.

Universal pre-K is something that our Michigan viewers will see as something that's a bipartisan issue in their state.

In Indiana, it tends to be some division along party lines.

What are your thoughts on universal pre-K?

Yeah, when I would have those conversations as a state superintendent, that's where I was a little bit naive walking into that office because I really felt like the pros really outweighed the cons.

But there are a lot of people at the state House who felt like that was more of a home issue and that, you know, there wasn't a need for universal pre-K. And that's absolutely incorrect.

We've seen data, we have learned from others that the impact of that is lasting and huge, and it also has a very big cost savings.

It also helps our economy as our employers, you know, have also services for families.

But our kindergarten readiness is not where it needs to be, and that is simply because of the lack of a willingness from a one party rule, again, to implement universal pre-K. You are correct.

In most states it is a bipartisan push because it is so incredibly important.

But in Indiana, it's just a very hard conversation for whatever reason.

But the majority of Hoosiers are in support of it.

We just have to make sure we have the right people at the state house in order to move this initiative along.

Now, you talk about having the right people on the state house and also about one party rule.

I would venture to say that you predict the Republicans will have a majority in both chambers in 2024, but you're arguing that there should, at a minimum, be a Democrat in the governor's mansion or or what are you looking at, looking forward to get that kind of compromise that you're talking about?

Yeah, I think it's a great question.

I have a lot of faith in our candidates for the House.

I know we are really close to breaking that supermajority in the House and in that chamber in the Senate.

It's going to be a little bit more difficult where we are.

We've got a long way to go there.

But the House is realistic.

And so, you know, working together with those great candidates down ballot up and down the ballot will be essential.

But again, we've got great candidates who are fighting for the right reason.

They're wanting to stay focus on the values that people are concerned about, our rights and our freedoms, our wages, our roads, our lack of connectivity in some of our areas universal pre-K.

Some of the issues that directly impact our families that are being ignored.

And so with the House is very, very, very it's there.

You know, we can that is within a close reach.

And so the governor's office is essential, but also the house.

So as you talk about the House, just so we're clear with you, is you're not necessarily talking about a Democratic majority in the state House, but breaking a supermajority so that business can't be conducted without Democrats at all?

That's correct.

I'm sorry.

That is correct.

So it would be breaking that supermajority, which would be a great step toward having more of a balance.

Okay.

Now, what about there has been debate surrounding Indiana's watersheds and more generally, water quality environmental protection, conservation.

Some in the state house really seem to see this as a debate between sort of environmentalists and folks who are concerned about business and economic progress.

And others seem to take a different tactic.

I wonder what your thoughts are on whether or not Indiana is making the right decisions in terms of sustainability or protecting our environment.

Yeah, first of all, I think anything that is done in the space of economic development where there's a huge environmental impact, there is got to be a lot of conversation and transparency and accountability.

And I don't see that happening in Indiana.

And I think that's some of the frustration we're seeing where people are blindsided and not understanding that your aquifers are at risk.

Your your air is at risk, your health risks are high.

So there's a lot to it.

But again, just having the conversation and making sure that it's been done in a transparent and honest way would be incredibly important.

You know, bringing in people who will run the test, run the assessments that have no skin in the game for Indiana, that will give us a very, very honest assessment of the situation for the economic development.

Impact on environmental is an incredibly important.

You know, right now we've had a couple of years of just a battle against the environment, whether that's our wetlands, whether that's our aquifers, whether that's, you know, fats, the toxins that are life toxins, you know, the list goes on.

And we have a lot of environmental issues that we should be having more conversation about regardless of.

It's not an environmentalist versus a non environmentalist.

It's about our health.

It's about our future.

And those conversations need to happen.

I remember the former and the late Congresswoman Jackie Walorski being on set and talking about the state trying to regulate, you know, a little trickling stream or a puddle on a farm.

So it's interesting how sometimes the issue of regulation can really become personal for people, and there's this perception that it just goes too far.

How do we walk the line there?

Yeah, we're not talking about trickles on, on a creek and off farms.

We're not.

We're talking about aquifers that serve 70% of our users.

We're talking about recreational waters that are 100% of our users.

We're talking about our air quality that impacts all of us.

So we're not talking about minor issues that are people are being Ticky talking about.

We're talking about going from 189,000 protected recreational for us to three.

And that is a lasting generational impact.

So let's have that conversation.

Know, I respect and Representative Walorski, she was a wonderful person, but on this one I just disagree with, It's not minor issues that we're talking about here.

These are major life impacting situations.

And interestingly, even like the chemical conversation that we're having right now with the toxins with the PFA.

Yes.

Situation.

I mean, that Bill is unique to Indiana and that should sound alarm bells for all of us that the entire nation has said this is so dangerous, we have to make sure that we're putting restrictions on these toxins and Indiana is opening them up.

And viewers can check out our episode with Representative Bauer and Representative Dvorak, where they talk quite a bit about that issue of the regulation of those people's thinking about folks in rural communities.

As you know, they do face some unique challenges and opportunity and access to certain kinds of educational opportunities health care, economic development, even broadband can be a challenge.

What would you do to serve rural folks living in the rural areas of our state?

Yeah, so I'm in rural Henry County, so I've lived in rural, suburban and urban sections of Indiana and I am very, very aware of the unique differences and similarities.

But having lived in the majority of that in rural Indiana, I understand that first of all, it's got to be a priority.

We cannot just assume because, you know, over half of our state population are counties are declining in population that we can just write them off.

That makes no sense.

I would also say that long list of things that you mentioned, I would add to education as some of our most rural schools are losing the most money from the privatization efforts.

So it's about prioritizing all areas of Indiana, making sure we have an incentive program, whether that's economic education, health care, in order to make sure that those areas are compatible and sustainable.

We can't continue the way we're going.

We're watching those that we're just see a lot of crumbling across the rural Indiana.

And that's not sustainable for, you know, for the good of the entire state.

Now, I suspect in the fall we will see a Libertarian candidate on the ballot for governor.

Candidate such as Donald Rainwater have actually done quite well in past years.

In part, a big issue is always the issue of marijuana and legalization.

Some recent polls suggest that a majority of Hoosiers do support moving toward legalization, either medicinal or recreational.

But there obviously are a lot of people who are concerned.

What is your thought?

Should this state legalize?

Should the state wait until the federal government changes its policies or or should we stick with our current policies?

Yeah, it's time.

I mean, the rest of the nation is not waiting.

It's time we're losing a lot of resources that we're also taking away some of the health care decisions from individuals.

It's time.

Now, I'm not saying we open up the floodgates.

I think we need to be smart about it, making sure that we start with the medical side of things and making sure we have a well-regulated system.

I've seen where other states have done it and maybe not been as thoughtful as they should have, but others have done a great job with it.

But it's time, and I've heard that from across the aisle that the medical piece, especially given just where we are with our medical choices in the space of pain regulations and pain care and making sure mental health, I mean, we I hear from a lot of people that say, I want this option.

Many of the Hoosiers right now are crossing the state lines.

It's it's we're not we're being naive if we're think that's not happening.

So it's time.

But doing it in a very purposeful, well-regulated way is is, I think, the smart thing to do.

And some studies suggest that, well, moderate marijuana use may be safe for adults.

It may have some deleterious effects on the brains of children.

How would we be able to protect children?

Does this send the signal that it's okay for everybody, or do you think the age limits would be appropriate and enough to protect children if we do move forward with legalization?

Yeah, unfortunately, I was an educator.

Kids already have their hands on it.

They do.

And for us to not all kids, but they can get access to it if they want it.

And they're pretty savvy.

And it's not hard across the state.

That's not just in certain areas.

That is across the state.

So again, I'm not saying we open up the floodgates, but in a well-regulated industry and obviously we're not going to just open it up to all ages and hope for the best.

That's not what we're looking at.

We're looking at a system that is set up for adults.

But but again, we are we know, unfortunately, we have a lot of kids of all ages that are already using and and that is a completely different issue that we are going to have to address.

Now, is there any issue we haven't discussed yet that you want voters to be thinking about as they head into the primaries and then into that general election?

Yeah, I mean, when I'm across the state, I hear a lot still about women's reproductive rights and freedoms.

And as far as protecting those and making sure that, you know, those don't go any further and try to restore what we had, you know, having less freedoms than we had 50 years ago as half of the population makes no sense.

And I hear a lot of people talk about this is not just about unwanted pregnancies.

It's about wanted pregnancies as well.

It's about health care.

It is complex.

We can have our own opinions about abortion, but to tell someone that their decision doesn't matter in addition to their family, their health care provided their own spiritual decision and spiritual leader is just not very popular in the state of Indiana.

So I will fight to restore our reproductive rights and freedoms and make sure that women have a voice.

As you're talking with voters across the state about that issue.

Do you get a sense that Democrats are now more motivated because of the ban on abortion in this state?

We often saw evidence that people who consider themselves pro-life rather than pro-choice, really voted on that issue.

Are you seeing any shift there based on your conversations with the Hoosiers across the state?

I am.

But it's not just Democrats as Republicans.

It's independence.

It's libertarians that are you know, it's not a popular decision.

Many people are wanting to fight to retain our rights and our freedoms.

So it's not really a Democratic Party unique issue.

It really is across the board.

But yes, people are motivated, people are scared.

They also understand that the Republicans have told us that they want to go further than they did.

So, you know, they're already talking about contraception.

They're already talking about further restrictions on abortion.

And they're already having those conversations that are impacting other areas of people's medical needs.

And so this is not just a Democratic Party issue.

This is a Hoosier issue.

And I think people are very concerned and very motivated as it is our rights and our freedoms.

Well, thank you so much, Jennifer McCormack.

That's all the time we have for this week's Politically Speaking.

I do want to thank our guests, Jennifer McCormick, Democratic candidate for Indiana governor.

I'm Elizabeth Benton, reminding you that it takes all of us to make democracy work.

We'll see you next time.

This WNIT Local production has been made possible in part by viewers like you.

Thank you.