Howes: Hi, I'm Lewis Howes, New York Times bestselling author and entrepreneur.

And welcome to "The School of Greatness," where we interview the most influential minds and leaders in the world to inspire you to live your best life today.

In this episode, we sit down with Kerry Washington.

She's an Emmy-nominated actress and New York Times bestselling author.

Today, she's here to share how the truths we're most afraid of can become our greatest source of healing, and why real strength begins with the courage to be vulnerable so you can stop performing for approval and start living as your fullest, most authentic self.

Woman: She's an absolute powerhouse of the silver screen.

Washington: Now, the story I'm telling myself is that my job is terrible.

The story I'm telling myself is that the world is on fire.

The story I'm telling myself is that I'll never be in the body I want to be in.

I don't have to give my entire existence over to that message and that story.

I can kind of have some distance from the thought and to say, like, "I see you, I understand where that belief system is coming from, but it doesn't have to be the truth."

Howes: So let's dive in and let the class begin.

We talked about in college kind of going through anxiety and stress and overwhelm when you were starring in the plays and you, you know, looked like you had it all put together on the outside, but the inside, you were dealing with anxiety.

Washington: A total mess.

Howes: And a lot of other things that were just happening, and you were on your knees praying and you didn't -- and I think it was, you didn't really feel like you had a spiritual connection at that moment, but that opened up a spiritual channel.

Washington: When you get on your knees in prayer, again, that's a physical embodiment of an emotional dynamic because there is inherent humility for being on your knees.

So sometimes -- like, I'm a person who prays all the time, like I pray in my car, I pray when I'm walking down the street, I pray when I'm cooking dinner.

But I do feel like there are times when it's really important for me to take that submissive posture and get on my knees, just to remind myself that I'm not in control, that I'm not the ultimate power, that there's something bigger than me, that I can ask for help that's outside of me.

So, again, for me, that relationship between, you know, how we think, how we feel, and how it lives in the body is such a huge part of how I work as an actor and how I try to live my life.

Howes: Yeah.

When you started praying after that moment, what did you start to hear?

Washington: So, like you said, I was in college, and I was really struggling.

I have throughout my life struggled with an eating disorder, and that was, like, the worst of it.

It was the -- that was the turning point where I really was like, "I need help."

Like, I can't fix this by myself.

Howes: Is this like starving or it's just this, like... Washington: So, you know what?

For me, I was -- I knew that eating disorders existed, and I think I tried to play this game where I didn't want to fit into any easy diagnosis.

So, I was always kind of, like, transforming it and morphing it.

But I was controlled and obsessed by feeling like I wasn't enough.

Howes: Really?

Washington: Yeah.

So, the prayer for me was really -- I think what I started to hear was that it was okay to ask for help and that it was okay for me to seek healing.

Howes: Why do you think you didn't feel enough?

Washington: I think for me, that journey started really, really, really early.

And I talk about this a little bit in my memoir, but, you know, I was conceived with the help of a sperm donor, and that was something I didn't find out until I was in my 40s.

Howes: Oh, man.

That's crazy to me.

Washington: It was pretty wild.

I think my parents would have taken this secret to their graves if they could have.

Howes: Oh, gosh.

Washington: And luckily, they weren't able to.

They were kind of forced to tell me, to share this with me.

And it wound up being transformative for our family because it was the thing that they were most terrified to tell me because they thought that it would destroy our family, that I would, you know, be angry with them, that I would not -- no longer see my dad as my dad, that it would fracture this kind of perfect facade, this image that we were portraying to the world.

It, of course, as with most things in life, had the opposite impact.

It was so healing for my family to sit in that truth and to have the courage to be honest with one another actually made me feel closer to my dad.

It made me so grateful to my parents.

I understood so, so many of the, like, confusing dynamics of our household growing up.

Suddenly I understood.

You know, I often say, like, I entered the world in a lie, right?

Like, the moment that I got here, the moment that I emerged from my mom, like, they were lying to me about who my parents were.

And so, I think there was a disconnect very early on.

And like most kids, I decided -- like, children, to make sense of discomfort and unease, we will -- they will blame ourselves, right?

Like, I must be the reason.

Because you can't blame your parents because they're responsible for your survival and well-being.

So, you blame yourself.

And so for me, I think I decided, well, I must not be enough.

Like, this weird disconnect that I have, or this way that they hold me at arm's length, or this kind of slight veil where I feel like I'm not getting 100% of the truth.

And I couldn't have articulated any of that as a child, but it was a feeling, right?

I thought, well, maybe if I'm better, they'll be closer to me.

If I'm better, I'll have their full presence.

So, that's why I think I interpreted it as I have to be more, I have to do better, I have to be better in order to get presence and love and acceptance.

Howes: Can you achieve greatness and feel enough at the same time?

Washington: I think you can.

I -- for me, that's what I'm really trying to do.

It's the walk that I'm trying to walk is like, can I -- can I love myself and also seek more?

Is it okay to, like, to want to be excellent, to be great, to be a champion, to be -- to be a master at my craft and not have that come from a place of deficiency, have that come from a place of joy and seeking.

Howes: And when did you start to feel like you were enough?

Was it before the lie was revealed or after the lie was revealed?

Washington: I feel like from the moment that I went into therapy in college, those days of, like, getting on my knees and being like, "Somebody help me."

I feel like I've been on this journey of trying to feel like enough, of like picking up tools throughout the decades of like, I know I should feel like enough.

And so, like, I know that that -- like, we're all perfectly imperfect.

We're all children of God.

Like, I should wake up in the morning and not hate myself.

Like, we all deserve that.

And so, I've been trying to cultivate, like, what does that take?

What will that look like?

What do I have to do?

Different healing practices, different modalities and yoga and Pilates and therapy and group therapy and introspection.

And so, I have been on that walk.

But I do think -- and it's gradual, right?

It's not like you wake up one day and you're like, "I'm healed now!"

But I do think my parents offering me this deeper truth about who I am and where I come from... it, like, gave me permission to relax into who I am and to be like, I'm good.

Howes: Yeah.

Washington: I'm okay.

Howes: Now, do you feel like before that truth was revealed that you were able to fully relax into your relationship with your parents, even though they were loving to you and supported you and encouraged, you?

Washington: No.

Howes: You don't feel like you were able to?

Washington: No, and again, I've always had a really loving relationship with my parents.

I have incredible parents, and they have given me so many tools, consciously and unconsciously.

They have -- they've been a tremendous part of the story of me getting to where I am today.

I'm not where I am, despite my parents.

I'm mostly where I am because of my parents.

And then there is a little bit of despite those dynamics, I wound up here.

There were these kind of smaller revelations throughout my childhood, like I talk about in the book, how my dad was kind of involved in this investigation.

And so, when I learned about that, I was like, "Oh, this is what it was."

Howes: Ah.

Washington: Right?

Howes: Because they're hiding this.

Washington: Yes, there were these -- I think the culture of my family was kind of hide the truth to look good and like we should -- we should do whatever it takes to, like, look good in the world.

So, as I would learn these smaller truths along the way, I kept waiting to feel the revelatory feeling that I had when I got the big truth.

[ Laughs ] Howes: Interesting.

Washington: Yeah.

Howes: Did you have any resentment or anger once they opened up after four decades of hiding this lie?

Washington: I did.

I did, I did.

It was like a roller coaster.

I feel like I've had every possible feeling that you could have about this news that I got.

Any possible feeling you could have, I've had.

I've had gratitude.

I've felt elated.

I have felt bliss.

I have felt anger.

I've felt anxiety.

I've felt fear.

So, it was -- I mean, I think when they first told me, I felt really compassionate because I could see when they told me how afraid they were to tell me.

And I remember saying to my dad -- and I don't know where this came from, but I'm so grateful that this dropped into my brain to say to him -- I said to him, "You know, our whole lives I have told you that I love you on the pretense of a lie."

Like, every time that I have said I love you, there's been a tiny filter that my dad was thinking like, "Oh, she loves me because she thinks I am her father."

Howes: Yeah.

Washington: And so, in this revelation, I actually got to say I love you unconditionally.

Like, I got to say, "I know the full truth of you, and I'm not going anywhere.

I still love you."

Howes: Wow.

Washington: And to me, that's a much more powerful love, right?

A love that's rooted in absolute vulnerability and honesty.

When you get to like, show all your dirty laundry to somebody and your greatest fears and admit the things that you're scared to admit, and they don't go anywhere, that is real love, right?

So that's what we got to give each other.

When they gave me the truth, I got to give them that return of unconditional love.

And them giving me the truth was a way of loving me unconditionally because they were saying, "We know you might be mad.

We know you may not want to be in relationship with us.

We know this might change the dynamic of our family forever, but we're going to give you this truth anyway."

Howes: Wow.

It must have took a lot of courage for them.

Washington: Yeah.

Howes: Because maybe they're thinking, ah, we're never going to say this, but now she's in her 20s.

Washington: Yeah.

Howes: You can't do it now.

Washington: That's right.

My mom was like, "When was I supposed to tell you?

When you're in the throes of an eating disorder?"

Like, when was I... when you're totally depressed or when you know you're in a broken relationship?

Or she was like, "There was never a good time."

Howes: Or "Now your career is taking off.

We're going to bring you back down."

Washington: Yeah.

That's right.

Howes: It's like, let's let her succeed and just... Washington: There's never an easy time to tell the truth when there are hard truths to tell.

Howes: But you also, I mean, you have kids, and so they're grandparents as well.

So, I wonder what that dynamic was like, now that they're lying to generations.

Washington: Yeah.

Howes: I mean, your father must have gone through so many emotions himself.

I'm not saying it's okay that they lied.

Washington: Yeah, but we're all doing the best we can.

And again, like, especially as parents, I think it is really powerful and important, I think, in our journey that -- they told me at the right time, right?

Because it's when they told me, so whenever they -- whenever it happened is when it was supposed to happen.

And I do think there's something beautiful about the fact that when they told me I was myself a parent, because I had a different level of understanding of how hard it is to parent and how you can try to do everything perfectly, but nobody gets it perfect.

It's just there's no such thing.

And actually, the ways that our parents are imperfect, that's part of the journey of how we become who we are.

That's how we fill in those cracks and become the adults that we are.

Howes: Yeah, and they were trying to protect you, and they loved you, and they wanted to keep you guys together.

It was part of their journey.

Washington: Yeah.

Howes: He must have let go of a huge weight.

Washington: Yeah.

Howes: Like, does he seem lighter and younger?

Just like emotionally?

Washington: Yeah.

It was a very important lesson for me, and also how to metabolize fear and how to run toward the things that we think will destroy us.

Because initially, he wouldn't even take a genetic test.

You know, he was like, I don't want to -- I don't want to know.

I don't want to know.

I don't want anybody else to know.

He literally said to me, if you do this, it will kill me.

Howes: Oh, my God.

Washington: He didn't want me to write a book.

He was like, nobody should know this.

Why do we have to talk about this?

Nobody needs to talk about this.

Nobody needs to know.

Then I think about moments in my book tour where he's like standing in an auditorium, getting a standing ovation, where people are celebrating his presence as a dad, and the fact that despite the fact that I wasn't genetically his, that he has been such a force in my life and has loved me so fiercely.

And, you know, he got that in like several cities, standing ovations, cheering him on and celebrating him.

And on national television, people saying, like, what an amazing thing you did.

And even the fact that my parents made this choice to use a sperm donor in the ’70s when nobody was doing that, that in itself is a testament of how much they wanted me.

Howes: Oh, man, it's so beautiful.

Washington: So that journey for my dad, to see him go from being somebody who he thought would lose all respect and credibility and masculinity and identity, to see him be so celebrated and held up.

It's a really important lesson, right?

Howes: It's so powerful.

Washington: The thing that we think will destroy us could be our greatest gift.

Howes: Spiritual partnership is something I've heard you say before.

Washington: Yeah.

Howes: When you met your man... Washington: Yeah.

Howes: ...how did you know that you guys were building a spiritual partnership?

Washington: So, there are a couple of things.

I mean, one is my parents.

The fact that my parents are still together is a real gift and a miracle.

And I remember, right, like, it's not that common.

And there were times I talk about this in the memoir where I would be like, you guys should break up.

Like what?

What?

You are not happy.

Howes: Interesting.

Washington: And I remember my mom saying to me, like, "I know that you think you know everything."

I was like 16.

You know, she was like, "For you, your 16 years are the full picture, but your 16 years are a fraction of our marriage, right?

Like, we were together long before you got here, so we have had good times and bad times.

We've had ups and downs.

Like, your little window into this is not the full story."

And that was a really important lesson to me in what marriage is, that there are, like -- there are highs and lows.

It's a journey, it's a path.

And like, if you're committed, you have to be committed for the journey.

Howes: How did you guys create that commitment, then, from something bigger?

What did you talk about?

Washington: The first thing I thought about when you asked me that question is the importance of therapy.

Because, yeah, let's go.

Let's go!

Right?

Like, individual therapy, couples therapy, like, being willing to have spaces where you do the work.

And I remember my dad one day being like, "You guys are in couples therapy?

Like, what's wrong?"

And we were like, "Nothing."

Like nothing's wrong.

It is a place where we go to take care of our marriage in the way that I go to the gym to take care of my body, or I go to the dentist to take care of my teeth, like, I feel like as a couple, we deserve, and therefore we cultivate, a place where we care for our relationship, and it doesn't come out of crisis.

It doesn't come out of things that are bad.

I mean, in fact, like, we spend a lot of time in therapy consciously talking about what we're doing well and acknowledging that for each other.

Howes: Oh, gosh.

That's so cool.

Washington: Because it's really important to not take for granted that there are good things to celebrate and acknowledge about each other.

Howes: Would you say therapy has helped you not only in your, I guess, marriage and your family dynamic relationships, but also in your career -- Washington: Yes.

Howes: ...and stepping into owning your power and your worth, even though you're excelling and succeeding so much?

Do you still have any doubts or insecurities?

Washington: Yes.

Howes: Really?

Washington: Absolutely.

Howes: But you're Kerry Washington.

Washington: [ Laughs ] Yeah.

So what?

Howes: For someone watching and listening who maybe is really struggling and they don't have much going on in their life, or they just feel like things just keep knocking them down, what advice would you give them?

Washington: Part of why therapy is so important is because it has taught me to pause.

It has taught me to take a pause and to not believe every single thought that I'm having, to not get caught up in the negative self-talk.

There's a saying that I love that pause stands for "Postpone Action Until Serenity Emerges."

Howes: Amazing.

Washington: Right?

Like, just take a beat.

And for me, in the way that life moves so quickly, sometimes therapy is that beat where I get to go, like, hold on.

The story I'm telling myself is that my job is terrible.

The story I'm telling myself is that the world is on fire.

The story I'm telling myself is that I'll never be in the body I want to be in.

The story I'm telling myself is that I'll never find the person I want to find.

But, like, maybe I can just pause that for a moment and unpack it and figure out how to walk toward healing.

Some people could be, like, meditative walking or journaling or -- but it's like, what are the practices that allow me to pause and get in the present moment and be more honest with myself?

Howes: Yeah.

When you're stepping into a role, like, is there any moment you're feeling insecure at this?

Washington: Every single time.

Howes: Really?

Washington: Every single time.

Because here's the crazy thing.

Howes: At this season of your career?

Washington: Yes.

Yes.

Howes: But you've been crushing it.

Washington: It's excitement, though, right?

Like it's that fear that also -- I have to remember that the physiological experience of fear is the same physiological experience of excitement.

So, that fear is like holy... I've never done -- because every time I play a new character, I'm doing something I've never done before.

Like, I do have a toolbox of, like, I know how to memorize the lines and I know I... but I'm becoming a new human being every time I start a new project, a new person with new desires and new fears, and she walks a different way and she wears her hair a different way.

And she has different ways of speaking and breathing and eating.

And so, I'm starting from scratch every time I start a new role.

So, I'm always terrified, and I'm always like, oh, God, will I be able to figure this one out?

Will I be able to unlock her?

Will I be able to be her in the way that the project needs me to be her?

Howes: Of course.

Washington: I kind of have two jobs.

There's an outside-in approach and there's an inside-out approach.

And the inside-out approach is I ask myself, like, what do I, Kerry, know about this character?

What about her experience can I relate to deeply?

Howes: Personally, from your experience?

Washington: Yes, personally.

And then do I have the courage to reveal that part of myself publicly and let the other stuff kind of fall away and let that part of me be my full essence in this character?

Howes: I feel like you've really had to train your nervous system to always come back home to safety, because you're playing these characters, and obviously it's "make believe" or "character" or it's "movie making."

Washington: The body doesn't know the difference.

Howes: Your adrenaline is heightened.

It's in fear or it's in aggression, or it's in shooting or whatever it's in, or it's in make-believe love, whatever it is.

And so, your nervous system in your body, you have to psychologically, like, remove it somehow and get back to the spiritual alignment of your character in life, of who you are.

Washington: Yeah, and a lot of it is like being an athlete.

You know, you have to really take care.

You have to make sure -- because it wreaks havoc on your nervous system, the sleeping and the eating and the exercising, those practices are really, really important to maintain sanity.

Howes: What has been the breakthrough or the self-awareness you've created in the process of internal family systems work?

Washington: I was familiar with IFS work, and I had done kind of inner child work with other therapists, but this year I really decided to make a pivot and to work with an IFS therapist.

And it has been life-changing.

It's so funny because in many ways I speak internal family systems, language as an actor, right?

Because I am always dealing with these different parts of myself and bringing them forward.

Howes: That's so interesting.

Washington: And so, it's a really exciting way for me to understand the different parts of myself that still feel not enough on certain days or angry or resentful or afraid or... IFS has really helped me to not identify wholly with those stories when they come up.

Right?

Like there's the story.

Who's the part that's telling that story?

How do I take care of that part and then move on?

Right?

I remember when I was, like, just starting therapy and I had this therapist who would say, like, "How do you feel?"

And I was like, "Oh, I just feel really fat."

And she was like, "Fat is not a feeling."

I was like, "It's not?!"

Like, because also I had grown up in a house where people would -- where my mom -- I heard my mom say, like, I feel fat.

And it was like a -- she was like, "What's underneath the feeling fat?"

Howes: What was that?

Washington: Is it anger?

Is it sadness?

It's different.

I think for me, feeling fat was often like just a... It was like a crutch that I went to that would prevent me from getting to that next feeling underneath.

I would make it about the body and not being enough, as opposed to diving deeper into, like, what is the feeling that needs to be addressed here?

Howes: What was it in that moment for you?

What was your soul feeling?

Washington: That feeling fat is feeling unlovable, so therefore not enough.

Howes: Really?

Washington: Yeah.

Washington: Yeah, sure.

Howes: You feel unlovable at times?

Washington: It happens.

Yeah.

I don't live there.

I mean, that's the great thing is that I don't -- I don't live there, but I don't want to pretend that the thought doesn't come up.

Howes: Sure.

Washington: Because I'm really proud to have tools -- to have tools and support systems that have helped me figure out what to do with the thought when it comes up or how to -- how to embrace it.

Howes: Yeah.

How to navigate it.

Washington: Yeah.

Navigate's a great word.

Howes: When you feel unlovable or not enough, is it not feeling lovable or enough with people on the outside of you, or not feeling lovable within you?

Washington: I think it all goes back to spirit.

I think it all goes back to, like, am I loved by source, right?

Like, am I lovable by God?

Because when we don't feel lovable in ourselves in a spiritual way, then we need it externally from other people, whether that's in a relationship or from fans or from an employer or an employee or, like, whatever that looks like.

But seeking that approval and love and acceptance and belonging externally is usually because I don't feel like I'm in alignment with the fact that I am loved, that like I am loved and okay, just as I am, that I -- like, because I think that's where the idea that I have to be somebody other than who I am, forgetting that who I am, as I am, is enough.

I'm good, I am.

But when we forget that, we're like, "Oh, I have to be something else."

I have to -- I have to be better.

I have to be stronger.

I have to be more successful.

I have to be thinner, prettier, smarter, whatever it is, as opposed to like, I am good, I am blessed, I am loved, and I'm on a journey of excellence.

So, I'm willing to be bigger, better, smarter, more successful.

But I don't have to be to earn anybody's love.

Howes: That's beautiful.

Washington: That's on a good day.

[ Both laugh ] Howes: I want to acknowledge you for a moment for your healing journey.

Washington: Oh, thank you.

Howes: For the journey of allowing yourself to feel safe again, for allowing yourself to heal, for allowing yourself to have a beautiful relationship with your family, your extended family, your current family, and to allow yourself to really be a star in your life and create the career you want, but also create the privacy, the safety, and the love you want, personally.

And this is a question I ask people at the end.

It's called the Three Truths.

Imagine a hypothetical scenario.

You get to live as long as you want to live, but it's your last day on earth and you get to accomplish and create all of life's magic.

But for whatever reason, everything you've created has to go with you.

Your movies, your TV, this interview, books, anything you create is gone.

So, we don't have your information or your content anymore.

But on the last day, you get to leave behind three lessons to the world.

Three truths that you would share from your experiences of what you've learned.

What would those three lessons or truths be for you?

Washington: No matter who you are, you are enough.

The truth is easier, even though it feels harder at times, and that there is true, true strength in vulnerability.

There is no way to get strong without being willing to be vulnerable.

Howes: My final question -- what's your definition of greatness?

Washington: Offering up the best of what you have, moment to moment.

If you're giving the best of what you have, then that's what today's greatness looks like.

Howes: If today's conversation moved you, there's so much more where that came from.

Make sure to scan the QR code on the screen, or visit greatness.com/tv to follow "The School of Greatness" podcast and sign up for our free newsletter.

And stay tuned for more episodes on "The School of Greatness" right here on public television.

Again, my name is Lewis Howes, and if no one has told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

Now it's time to go out there and do something great.

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